Apple is becoming very difficult to support for developers. First they deprecated OpenGL and practically force you to use their own graphics API Metal, and now they try to push ARM while the vast majority of desktop computers have x86 CPUs. If you are an Apple fan, you should revise your values.
This is a … weird stance to take. Sorry for the zombie reply, I found this after trying to work out why my Mac and Windows characters weren’t syncing under Steam.
There are a couple incongruities that don’t make sense to me.
The large install base for Macs is x86, so blaming this on ARM is weird. It’s possible it’s related to library support (e.g., 3D rendering technology) in newer OS X versions, but why not just say that?
“Apple’s transition will involve dropping instruction set support for the Intel and AMD CPUs…” Uh. The current last updated Last Epoch client runs flawlessly on M1 Macs using Rosetta 2. The work you need to do is … not breaking what’s already working? Apple did the hard work by providing ARM to x86, so you could keep using your x86 knowledge.
“As an indie team…” A couple questions here. First, you’re still supporting Linux - what are the numbers between OS X and Linux? Will you drop Linux soon for similar reasons? And I see Path of Exile, also an indie studio, has managed to not just continue Mac support but promise an M1 binary soon. There’s not enough information out there showing the work is hard to justify the position. Many companies released universal binaries on day 1 (tools I use daily from indie studios like Scrivener and Vellum), so … what gives?
I guess the thing that rankles a bit here is I Early Access supported you on Steam because you had Mac support. This weekend on finding this I was like, “Oh okay, things change, I will ask for a refund,” which Steam denied me because of my >2 hour play time (… it’s 4 hours, as I check in every few patches to see how you’re doing). So, you got money on a promise, removed the promise, and now I can’t get a refund.
This kinda sucks, TBH. “Things are hard, but we’ve got your money,” isn’t a super-cool stance. Someone out there will no doubt say it’s Valve as the retailer here, but I figure a quick to and fro between Last Epoch devs and Valve might smooth the path on this on.
While my knowledge of Macs is minimal, this is certainly wrong. GGG aren’t an indie company, last I checked their most recent statutory accounts had several hundred million nz$ in the bank, they have several hundred employees and are majority owned by one of the largest entertainment companies in the world. While they don’t have a publisher, which would be one interpretation of “indie”, they most certainly aren’t a “small independent software developer struggling to make their way in the world” which is what the term indie usually evokes.
You could try emailing support to ask for a refund.
Yeah you’re probably right about the scale of Grinding Gear vs this situation - it was a poor line to draw to make a point in my part. It’s hard to know the financial states here of any company not IPO’d out the wazoo.
I’ll try contacting support as you suggest. I don’t have much hope of a good result as I’ve got no “contract” with them - the sale is via Steam- but I’m give it a shot.
I don’t know where you live & the relevant consumer protection law, but if I bought some software that was defective in some way, I’d totally expect to be able to deal with the developer rather than the retailer if the retailer’s return policy wasn’t in effect.
Good news: I ran 0.8.2d on my M1 Macbook Air with no issues yesterday. Just played about 10 minutes, seemed to run fine on Very Low. I didn’t try pushing it.
Bad news: I forgot what happened the last time I did this and it wiped ALL my stuff from my PC stash. I had been backing up my saves for a while but I totally forgot about it so it’s back to the beginning.
There have been people running LE in virtualised environments so you could give this a go on an M1 based mac if you wanted… The performance is apparently just ok, but it works so depending on how the M1s handle the GPU passthrough in a virtualised environment it might very well be a solution…
I dont think that EHG doesnt want to support Mac… I think the primary issue here is that the game engine version that LE uses doesnt support the ARM M1s and to upgrade LE to the latest Unity versions (which are actually still testing ARM support) will add at least a year to the development cycle (mentioned by the devs)… Time that I dont think EHG has right now and I dont think the player base is going to like adding another year before launch. I have zero affiliation with EHG but my gut feeling is that this might be something that comes later if the game is financially successful and they can afford to migrate to the newer version. This same issue is related to things like DLSS, FidelityFX and other technology that might be good to support but the game engine doesnt so there is nothing that can be done about it in the short term.
BTW… it seems that 0.8.2d was the last version that sort of works on Mac… Also. Do not use Steam Cloud saves with Mac - it messes up and you can lose your characters/stash.
Do you happen to know if people who run on it under Mac does it through CrossOver, Parallels, or something else?
Just to clarify my point: my point is that it doesn’t have to be M1 native. It already ran on Mac until a year ago.
New Mac M1s can run previous Mac apps pretty well through a compatibility layer called Rosetta 2. Honestly, most people wouldn’t be able to know if an app or game runs through it, or natively.
The last Mac build seems to run perfectly fine on M1s through Rosetta. So, I thought, that maybe they could revisit and not support M1 Macs natively (until their engine and finance support it, months or years down the line), but just keep doing what they were doing previously.
Of course, I am not a game dev so I might be missing more context (I am sure I miss 99% of the context ).
The virtualisation I refer to was done on Linux distributions that the users couldnt get LE working on for whatever reason - this was done using normal vm type software if I recall… If I were trying this myself, I’d probably go the Parallels route first with a windows 10 & steam combination. Next I would try a virtualised Pop_OS! linux and the standalone LE launcher via virtualisation… I am not sure if Crossover is likely to work - Codeweavers website doesnt specifically have much on the Unity game engine and what they have seems to be pretty old… The key here is that LE is running on Unity 2019.4 LTS so its important to find some reference to getting Unity working on whatever setup you have - irrespective of LE - at least as a starting point.
Regarding Rosetta 2, there are various threads on this on the Unity forums etc, but the key issue here seems to be (*imho) related to the reasoning that EHG gave about stopping Mac dev for now… It looks like there are massive performance issues with trying to make the Unity engine work through Rosetta 2 as, by Apples own admission, there are various X86_64 instruction sets etc that are not translated and some of these Unity uses. Even if LE didnt use these instruction sets, there is the issue that the translations need to happen twice on the ARM M1s - from x86 to Rosetta2 to Arm and apparently this means potentially massive performance hits for Unity - and lets face it LE is beta/unoptimised and already has performance issues without adding Mac to the mix… Obviously the new Unity engines will support ARM natively so this would then become a non-issue for Unity based games that use the new versions but… see above…
Something I didnt touch on directly in my response was also the issue of resources… besides time/money, EHG really doesnt have the manpower (even with them frantically gettting more people on board) to keep the older non ARM based Mac version working too…
Please note that I have zero affiliation to EHG, I have no insight into their plans beyond what any other player has… I am just guessing here, based on the info to hand and my own understanding of the development world…
I ran it from the last Mac release. I’m too scared to fiddle with it much more lol, though I have to say I am tempted. When 0.8.4 comes out, I will likely try installing through Parallels and see what happens.
I’ve tried to play Last Epoch on both Parallels and CrossOver and neither work without graphical glitches which makes it unplayable. It’s a shame the developer decided to drop MacOS support as the native MacOS version of the game still runs nicely on my M1 Mac.
Just learned that you sold a minority stake in the company to Tencent…
Interesting to see that you keep acquiring additional funding, but you have absolutely no problems breaking the promises you made to your original Kickstarter backers without whose funding you would be nowhere at al…
Ever stop to think that with this additional funding they might actually be looking into it?
And the Kickstarter complaint really doesn’t work. Read the terms of service with Kickstarter. I’ve run numerous Kickstarter campaigns (all funded, all delivered) and one thing it states always is that backing a kickstarter campaign that gets funded does not guarantee the project will come to fruition. I’ve actually backed several indie films that have never been made. Took the money and ran. It’s why personally, and also my company, has stopped funding stuff through crowd-sourcing.
And note, I’m a mac user. I was one of the original repliers to this thread because I’ve backed them since Alpha. Stuff happens. At least they admitted they couldn’t do it. With their track record, I feel they’ve been very upfront with their supporters and I don’t think they made this decision lightly. In fact, I like the devs so much I actually bought the game for someone just a couple of days ago to help support them. And I don’t have a mac version either.