Allow Players to Respec Their Mastery at a High Cost

I think its more of a factor of time for a lot of players… People dont have the 4-5 days to play a new char… From what I have gathered on the forums over the last year or so, there are MANY casual players that find this a deal breaker… They may have a few hours a day just to get through the campaign… so a mistake in a mastery selection has far more weight for them than others…

Personally I do not care either way - respec mastery or create a new char - honestly doesnt worry me in the slightest and has very little impact on my play… but I have time and I normally create multiple characters in any arpg anyway…

You say 'mistake ’ as if there’s any mastery that is unplayable :smiley: If we remove the permanency of mastery selection then what is left from the Role playing factor in aRPG for LE? You play a character and by some reasons you make a selection of a mastery (I guess it was not random click, you think it over and consider its benefits or theme). That is a choice and it is important. If a mastery is much worse than others is absolutly another matter and should be fixed by the devs.

Also, the today post from Mike (the dev) about Dungeons
so we don’t know how fast it would be to level up a twink. Maybe it is only some hours?

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Perfectly understand what you are saying… but then I am a veteran arpg player… I havent considered myself a casual gamer in decades…

for a casual player who just has enough time to play for a while and doesnt have the background / experience to understand the full impact of the mastery choice - it could very well be a mistake… at least the first time/two making a char…

Mike W… keen to see what they decide on this one as it seems to be quite an emotional topic… :wink:

It is hard to cater for both - veterans and casuals. But LE is already much easier on casual players than PoE. I think if a casual player takes a mastery plays it and then decides that he/she doesn’t like it - he/she won’t be lvl 100 by that tme :smiley: At best it is about the end of compaign. So levelling from 1 to 50-60lvl is a breeze. Especially if there is MP mode where he/she can be power levelled in no time.

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Just we don’t know exact numbers.

If you can provide numbers of how many of the player base of an ARPG are in favour of a classless system to an extend that a permanent character choice would be a deal breaker, developers could aim their game design towards the most profitable concept.

On the other hand it’s not always about the most profitable system. Sometimes it’s about game philosophy.

Going back to that “guides everywhere” argument, theres so much info on the internet about characters and builds that somebody that is in fear of losing time with a wrong character/mastery choice can make a relatively well informed choice.

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True… its all anecdotal right now… but its obvious, to me at least, that there are fair number of casuals around… enough I would guess that things like this are important enough to at least consider for them…

Classless system - no thanks, thats an entirely different topic to just respec’ing a mastery. different meaning for me and I do not recommend true classless arpgs…

Guides everywhere… yes… problem for me is that I am out of touch with the casual player - for me making an informed decision in an arpg is almost subconcious based on my experience in gaming and to read up a guide or double check a potential class skill tree is second nature and adds maybe 5 minutes to my decision making process (if that)… and I place no real weight behind making a mistake in my choice because I know for a fact that unless the game is absolute crap, I will make another character anyway…

I honestly have no idea if a casual player is interested in researching / following a guide or anything other than just playing the game for their limited timeslot… My gut feeling is that they just want to play and not have to consider everything…

It could very well just be one of those “cant please” everyone type decisions that will fall under the realm of “game design philosophy” & “how the developers want the game to work”

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Took me like 60h playing marksman to realize I don’t like marksman, but the purist have the developers wrapped around their fingers so hard, that they refuce to listen to any good suggestions.

That comment about the devs not listening is, imho, an unfair assumption on your part and I do not agree with it in the slightest… its a bit of a troll comment…

Back to the topic:

60h is a long time to play something only to realise that you dont like it… If I may ask…

  1. What level did you get to in the 60h of play on that character?
  2. What was the reason you disliked the character?

For context, I already have 800h into the game. For the first 60h or some I decided to roll Marksman, because I usually prefer range gameplay to mele. At the time Marksman had 0 good builds that could push high corruption content (like 300+) and I was so frustrated I wanted to switch to Blade dancer, for which I had quite good gear saved up. However the game just doesn’t allow you to do so. I really dislike backwards progression, it’s a waste of time and I was so frustrated, that for the next 40h I stubornly tried to optimize the Marksman, which I hated even more. (I have a very good gear for a multishot build and decent one for Icycle build). It got to a point where I flatout started to hate the game so I stopped playing. 2 weeks later I leveled my BD and had the best ARPG experience since PoE Breach league.
The conclusion - let people play the game however they want, instead of arbitrarily putting roadblocks.
I myself hate releveling and backwards progression and a lot of people share the same opinion.
The fact, that after 6 months, since I strated playing, repsecing masteries is still not in the game, just leads me to believe the developers listen to the purist D2 hardcore fanboys, that have no clue outside their narrowed tunnel vision.

BTW my marksman is level 99 and my BD is 100.

Yes, that is absolutely the case. In fact we have documented evidence that Mike knows who all the Community Testers by heart from the last stream.

Oh, wait…

The devs have said on many occasions that they’re not making the game just for the “purists”, they have made many changes to make things easier/better for new players (changing protections to resists, the upcoming changes to increased crit, the upcoming changes to crafting, minimum skill levels, faster skill levelling when they’re below a certain point.

And if LE did cater to the “purist D2 hardcore fanboys”, your inventory would be about 10x10 big, you wouldn’t be able to respec skills or passives (without a load of farming for mats), there’d be no skill bar (though you would be able to “specialise” more than 5 skills).

Have you thought that perhaps it’s the devs that don’t want people to be able to respec masteries rather than them being my our mental slaves (& BTW, I got ~5 mins into D2R before being bored & missing all of the changes that the genre has developed over the past ~20 years so I’m not sure I can be called a “purist D2 hardcore fanboy”). If the devs had been mentally dominated by yours truly then LE would look quite a bit more like Sacred 1 & 2 than it does (& the mana on Smite affix would never have been changed, plus Boardman would be able to spell & pronounce things properly). And the Primalist would be forced to have a daily bath/shower.

So, perhaps you could get out of your narrowed tunnel vision and stop slagging people off just because you don’t agree with them.

Good for you, a fair bit higher than my highest, so, um, who’s the “elite” player?

TLDR - The devs aren’t being controlled by a shadowy cabal of uber-players, they’re making the game that they want to while taking onboard all of the feedback from a range of players to improve the new player experience. If you don’t think so, you’re not paying attention (presumably because you’re very annoyned about not being able to change mastery).

The devs have also said that they view the masteries as separate classes rather than an advanced/prestige class. Not sure I necessarily agree with that.

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That decision can carry you too far. What if Mr. X doesn’t want to waste 50-100 hours to farm a unique item? He wants 100% chance to get it and asks ‘don’t put roadblocks on my way to that build . I only need that one unique and i want it ASAP ! Now!’. Isn’t aRPG gameplay is somewhat overcoming those roadblocks? The devs put low % chance to drop for a good unique for a reason. They absolutely could’ve made it a guaranteed drop , couldn’t they? The same goes for mastery choice. You can’t always get whatever you want asap.

If you were too stubborn to play a class you didn’t like that is not the flaw of LE it is your personal decision, don’t blame the game for that.

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Honestly, I cannot relate to your concerns…

You seem to have approached the game as if it was a fully released game, all content done and all balancing / class work completed & every nuance field tested… its nowhere near that…

Setting the bar for a successful build as a meta 300+ corruption capable requirement is seriously steep and would probably demoralise all but the most dedicated player testers.

I think your effort was doomed to failure from the start because of your expectations. and this failure has clouded your objectivity in looking at the issue from the angle that Marksman as a class needs more attention to achieve the meta levels that some other builds have been able to get to.

The other side of issue is how long it took you to re-evaluate your choice and move onto a new character that, in your words, was the best ARPG experience you have had in recent years.

I do not believe that any game should allow a free for all respec - especially if it has a very low “restart a new character” cost - even for casual players.

Restrictions help creativity within the ruleset.

Once the classes have all been properly completed/balanced then “wanting” to respec down to class level because a class is percieved as crap stops being a valid reason. Right now its probably a valid reason but if you were having fun playing Marksman you would never have wanted to respec to Bladedancer… You would have finished marksman and happily started a new char… correct?

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Was there a good suggestion I missed?

Make 15 characters. Done. You can respec them completely every day if you wish.

LoL I don’t know any purists so far and I’m arround for a while, there are just different oppinions like there are on every topic. Then again I get why some people like certain suggestions more then others.

It’s terrible for a lot of people with little time yes but on the other hand fast leveling would be bad as wel because a lot of people will cry there is nothing to do and all content is done and even rerolling is boring because it happens so fast. It’s hard to find a middle ground but I understand both sides :). I played Kritika for a bit and I liked their approach: For every toon on level xy you get X% more xp account wide. At a certain point you leveled in a good pace and soon after you leveled so fast it was a joke :D.

Guess what “hahah zaodon (who ever that is :D) you idiot I still play my Druid because it’s fun for me and I get everything done with it so cya”. Most people don’t care and from my point of view most fotm players suck hard because they try to copy paste a build and have no idea how to play it and as soon as the next fotm build hits the deck everything starts all over.

This is always the case and there will always be a meta it only depends who you play with. I know a lot of people who understand games well but they are chill dudes and don’t care if some is playing something underpowered and still manage to get things done ;).

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This argument is idiotic, as one thing is class related and the other is gameplay related. It has always been idiotic, yet everyone who doesn’t understands what backwards progression is, uses it. “shrug”. There are 5 classes, not 15.
Anyway, I’m not here to debate you guys, I was just explaining to OP that mastery respec will never happen because of people like you, who would in no way shape or form be effected by such change, but scream on the top of their lungs “REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE”.

You have watched too many Hazikostas’ QNAs. Translation: “You have more choises, by having less choises”. Nobody knows how that works, but like I said, I have heard it all, debunked it all, but the tunnel vision is just too strong…

No, it’s a logical extention of what you want.

That’s not how the devs view it, but what do they know…

Who?

As I said earlier, if all classes can use all skills equally well (like PoE before they introduced ascendancies & when they all started in the middle of the passive tree), then they’re all the same & instead of X many different ways of using a skill, you only have 1 with X many different skins/voice overs/etc.

While spouting demonstrably untrue balderdash. But, “I’m not here to debate you”, I’m just here to explain how the devs have commented on this & related things in the past.

If the devs think that respeccing masteries would be better for their game, they’ll do it.

Maybe this will help.

Incorrect: LE Mastery Classes are (should be) like PoE Ascendencies
Correct: LE Mastery Classes are classes.

You can’t “respec” your class in any game ever produced.

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Hey there everybody. I’ve been following this game off and on since kickstarter and thought I’d chime in with my 2 cents for whatever it’s worth. The fundamental problem, as in most games of this nature, is the opportunity cost of having more lateral freedom. This is something that needs to be looked at from a player AND developer point of view.

For players, having to reroll a new character is a lot of time to reinvest on something they may or may not like. The positive side is that you get to feel like your choices matter and that picking a class is a meaningful decision. Developers get to have their content recycled up to 14 times, which is fantastic for them!

Conversely, having free mastery respec makes mastery class choice relatively arbitrary and negates over 95% of the reason to ever relevel the same base class. Players with little free time love it because the game becomes super accessible. Players who have more free time and want a more impactful experience are kinda left out, but at least they don’t have to spend as much time grinding levels for alts. For developers, that sucks because it massively eats away at the replayability of their game.

To address the ultimate issue of having to reinvest the time necessary to relevel a character from scratch, there are a few options:

First, you could have free mastery respec up to a certain level (like 50 or 60) and encourage experimentation. When you hit that level, you tell players that they have to make a solid choice before they are able to level up again. This is a fairly tame and reasonable compromise that will have minimal impact on developers (aside from coding, testing, and implementing it). It is a solution that benefits casual players the most and has little to no effect on the more hardcore players.

Second, to mitigate the time spent rerolling the same base class, you could allow for a Veterancy bonus which gives an experience multiplier specific to each base class. A lot of MMORPGs institute a similar function and restrict it to your highest level character. Here, it would be the same except on a per-base-class basis. For example, you can make a level 78 Marksman and if you don’t like it then you can reroll as a Bladedancer and get bonus exp (like 50-100%) until you hit level 78. If you go for the third mastery (i.e. Falconer), you can the bonus twice based on the max level of the other two masteries of the same base class. So if you have a level 60 marksman, level 50 bladedancer, and start a falconer then you get (100-200%) exp until you hit 50 then (50-100%) exp until you hit 60. If you start a different base class, like a mage, you begin back at 0% exp bonus and begin the whole process again. This takes some work coding on the back-end, but is a compromise that allows players to NOT feel that their time was completely wasted on a mastery class they didn’t fully enjoy, while still retaining the strong impact of decision-making. Devs will probably break even with this since they will lose some total playtime from hardcore players, but will likely gain total playtime on the casual audience. This option involves some give and take from everybody, but allows for a middle-ground compromise.

Third option is having open “free” respec. This heavily eats at decision-making impact and actually hurts developers the most. Instead of having 15 classes, this effectively reduces it to 5. Why on earth would you relevel a brand new character to max when you can just hit a button, swap out some gear, and have 3 mastery classes at your fingertips? I mean sure, some people love the leveling up process and see it as an adventure, a few people have severe OCD and will max each mastery class, but the vast majority of RPG players I have encountered are relatively opportunistic. I have fun leveling, but I’m not going to level 10 more characters to max when I don’t have to - that’s just silly. You can put restrictions on swapping mastery classes endgame, but they would have to be incredibly heavy to maintain the importance of class choice AND incentivize you to revisit the same content with the same base class two more times. I like freedom of choice and respeccing is a fantastic convenience, but I’m also pragmatic enough to know that I and others would openly abuse this system for the sake of efficiency. I mean, you would literally have access to all 15 mastery classes with only one third of the time and effort. The only remotely reasonable tradeoff that comes to mind would be something like a stupid amount of some resource and/or half of your current level. It would also need to be an increasingly heavy penalty for each successive iteration - otherwise it will eat too heavily into the idea of releveling the same base class for a different mastery class. People would be substantially more likely to just pick their favorite of the 3 options then never touch the other two. When you relevel a class from scratch, it suddenly become a daunting task that is significantly less meaningful when you think to yourself, “Why am I doing this when I could have just hit a button and maybe lose some gold/exp/etc.?”.

There are, of course, some other clever ideas out there. A lot of the ideas will be different flavors of the same basic concepts. The ideal solution is one that addresses the fundamental problem of decision-making versus limited time and is a compromise between players and developers that maintains balance for both.

Also, for those wondering, no - I have not played this game. I have been between jobs and have to manage my finite resources amidst rising costs of living, so I’m hoping for a good black friday or Christmas sale. I have put THOUSANDS of hours into similar ARPGs (POE, Marvel Heroes, Grim Dawn, Titan Quest, Diablo 1/2/3, Torchlight 1/2, etc.), so I kinda know what I’m talking about in general, yet I can be relatively unbiased enough to have an outside perspective. I hope this helps, even in some small way, and I wish everyone the best!

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I have absolutely no idea who that is or what QNAs you are referring to. Honestly no clue & would have to google it (after my reply).

From my own experience in gaming, giving restrictions/rules/criteria is critical… Imagine Chess without any rules? Thats an absurd example but it applies… There have to be limits in place to create challenge, diversity through being creative and just making a game not downright boring as hell…

In aRPG games, you need some sort of ruleset in place (obviously entirely made up by the devs - for better or worse) to govern how the game works… If there were none, then the game would simply be a one character single playthrough game without any point of secondary playthroughs as everyone would just build their own favourite “favourite”, finish the end game content and be done.

Just look at all the builds on this forum… Everyone is based on the restrictions (and benefits) of specific classes/skills/passives… A lot of them are based on someone trying to min/max a particular playstyle as best they can within the restrictions… others are using a very specific set of uniques to achieve a viable build… still others play on the clever interaction of various skills within a restricted class setup to gain maximum benefit… None of this would happen if there were no rules and restrictions on builds… Players are forced to get creative, to create builds outside the proverbial box/even cheese the rules… Without rules? Sure there would probably be a meta for each class… but that would probably be it… no-one other than the die hard fanboys would bother with anything else… what would be the point…

Just put a blank piece of paper in front of kindergarden kids and let them use anything in a room with every possible art craft medium and zero instructions… Sure you might get something from one or two, but more often than not you will have an absolute mess and paint on the ceiling…

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There is a very good example in LE currently, which is an entirely different discussion, but it highlights very well, that having less choices, will increase build variety.

Namely: 5 Skill Slots

If you would have 6 skill slots, the overall build variety would decrease pretty substantially, because the majority of builds would still only use 1 or 2 damage abilities, 1 movement ability and then you have enough space for alot more defensive/utility skills.

If LE would hypothetically adapt to 6 skill slots and increase the numbers of skills that could be used as secondary defensive/utility skills, the build variety might increase again, but just enabling 6 skills would certainly not increase build variety and player choices.

In theory the permutations are exponentially more with 6 instead of 5 skills, but in practice that’s not the case, because there are certain combinations that don’t make any sense or don’t even work together.

That’s one of the reasons, why PoE at first glance has an absurd number of skills/potential combination, but in reality the build variety for a given skill is pretty limited.

Giving players restrictions, does serve a very good design purpose.
You can disagree or agree with that, but when you play a video game, the devs make the rules and you should try your best working around that.