Allow Players to Respec Their Mastery at a High Cost

Honestly, I cannot relate to your concerns…

You seem to have approached the game as if it was a fully released game, all content done and all balancing / class work completed & every nuance field tested… its nowhere near that…

Setting the bar for a successful build as a meta 300+ corruption capable requirement is seriously steep and would probably demoralise all but the most dedicated player testers.

I think your effort was doomed to failure from the start because of your expectations. and this failure has clouded your objectivity in looking at the issue from the angle that Marksman as a class needs more attention to achieve the meta levels that some other builds have been able to get to.

The other side of issue is how long it took you to re-evaluate your choice and move onto a new character that, in your words, was the best ARPG experience you have had in recent years.

I do not believe that any game should allow a free for all respec - especially if it has a very low “restart a new character” cost - even for casual players.

Restrictions help creativity within the ruleset.

Once the classes have all been properly completed/balanced then “wanting” to respec down to class level because a class is percieved as crap stops being a valid reason. Right now its probably a valid reason but if you were having fun playing Marksman you would never have wanted to respec to Bladedancer… You would have finished marksman and happily started a new char… correct?

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Was there a good suggestion I missed?

Make 15 characters. Done. You can respec them completely every day if you wish.

LoL I don’t know any purists so far and I’m arround for a while, there are just different oppinions like there are on every topic. Then again I get why some people like certain suggestions more then others.

It’s terrible for a lot of people with little time yes but on the other hand fast leveling would be bad as wel because a lot of people will cry there is nothing to do and all content is done and even rerolling is boring because it happens so fast. It’s hard to find a middle ground but I understand both sides :). I played Kritika for a bit and I liked their approach: For every toon on level xy you get X% more xp account wide. At a certain point you leveled in a good pace and soon after you leveled so fast it was a joke :D.

Guess what “hahah zaodon (who ever that is :D) you idiot I still play my Druid because it’s fun for me and I get everything done with it so cya”. Most people don’t care and from my point of view most fotm players suck hard because they try to copy paste a build and have no idea how to play it and as soon as the next fotm build hits the deck everything starts all over.

This is always the case and there will always be a meta it only depends who you play with. I know a lot of people who understand games well but they are chill dudes and don’t care if some is playing something underpowered and still manage to get things done ;).

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This argument is idiotic, as one thing is class related and the other is gameplay related. It has always been idiotic, yet everyone who doesn’t understands what backwards progression is, uses it. “shrug”. There are 5 classes, not 15.
Anyway, I’m not here to debate you guys, I was just explaining to OP that mastery respec will never happen because of people like you, who would in no way shape or form be effected by such change, but scream on the top of their lungs “REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE”.

You have watched too many Hazikostas’ QNAs. Translation: “You have more choises, by having less choises”. Nobody knows how that works, but like I said, I have heard it all, debunked it all, but the tunnel vision is just too strong…

No, it’s a logical extention of what you want.

That’s not how the devs view it, but what do they know…

Who?

As I said earlier, if all classes can use all skills equally well (like PoE before they introduced ascendancies & when they all started in the middle of the passive tree), then they’re all the same & instead of X many different ways of using a skill, you only have 1 with X many different skins/voice overs/etc.

While spouting demonstrably untrue balderdash. But, “I’m not here to debate you”, I’m just here to explain how the devs have commented on this & related things in the past.

If the devs think that respeccing masteries would be better for their game, they’ll do it.

Maybe this will help.

Incorrect: LE Mastery Classes are (should be) like PoE Ascendencies
Correct: LE Mastery Classes are classes.

You can’t “respec” your class in any game ever produced.

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Hey there everybody. I’ve been following this game off and on since kickstarter and thought I’d chime in with my 2 cents for whatever it’s worth. The fundamental problem, as in most games of this nature, is the opportunity cost of having more lateral freedom. This is something that needs to be looked at from a player AND developer point of view.

For players, having to reroll a new character is a lot of time to reinvest on something they may or may not like. The positive side is that you get to feel like your choices matter and that picking a class is a meaningful decision. Developers get to have their content recycled up to 14 times, which is fantastic for them!

Conversely, having free mastery respec makes mastery class choice relatively arbitrary and negates over 95% of the reason to ever relevel the same base class. Players with little free time love it because the game becomes super accessible. Players who have more free time and want a more impactful experience are kinda left out, but at least they don’t have to spend as much time grinding levels for alts. For developers, that sucks because it massively eats away at the replayability of their game.

To address the ultimate issue of having to reinvest the time necessary to relevel a character from scratch, there are a few options:

First, you could have free mastery respec up to a certain level (like 50 or 60) and encourage experimentation. When you hit that level, you tell players that they have to make a solid choice before they are able to level up again. This is a fairly tame and reasonable compromise that will have minimal impact on developers (aside from coding, testing, and implementing it). It is a solution that benefits casual players the most and has little to no effect on the more hardcore players.

Second, to mitigate the time spent rerolling the same base class, you could allow for a Veterancy bonus which gives an experience multiplier specific to each base class. A lot of MMORPGs institute a similar function and restrict it to your highest level character. Here, it would be the same except on a per-base-class basis. For example, you can make a level 78 Marksman and if you don’t like it then you can reroll as a Bladedancer and get bonus exp (like 50-100%) until you hit level 78. If you go for the third mastery (i.e. Falconer), you can the bonus twice based on the max level of the other two masteries of the same base class. So if you have a level 60 marksman, level 50 bladedancer, and start a falconer then you get (100-200%) exp until you hit 50 then (50-100%) exp until you hit 60. If you start a different base class, like a mage, you begin back at 0% exp bonus and begin the whole process again. This takes some work coding on the back-end, but is a compromise that allows players to NOT feel that their time was completely wasted on a mastery class they didn’t fully enjoy, while still retaining the strong impact of decision-making. Devs will probably break even with this since they will lose some total playtime from hardcore players, but will likely gain total playtime on the casual audience. This option involves some give and take from everybody, but allows for a middle-ground compromise.

Third option is having open “free” respec. This heavily eats at decision-making impact and actually hurts developers the most. Instead of having 15 classes, this effectively reduces it to 5. Why on earth would you relevel a brand new character to max when you can just hit a button, swap out some gear, and have 3 mastery classes at your fingertips? I mean sure, some people love the leveling up process and see it as an adventure, a few people have severe OCD and will max each mastery class, but the vast majority of RPG players I have encountered are relatively opportunistic. I have fun leveling, but I’m not going to level 10 more characters to max when I don’t have to - that’s just silly. You can put restrictions on swapping mastery classes endgame, but they would have to be incredibly heavy to maintain the importance of class choice AND incentivize you to revisit the same content with the same base class two more times. I like freedom of choice and respeccing is a fantastic convenience, but I’m also pragmatic enough to know that I and others would openly abuse this system for the sake of efficiency. I mean, you would literally have access to all 15 mastery classes with only one third of the time and effort. The only remotely reasonable tradeoff that comes to mind would be something like a stupid amount of some resource and/or half of your current level. It would also need to be an increasingly heavy penalty for each successive iteration - otherwise it will eat too heavily into the idea of releveling the same base class for a different mastery class. People would be substantially more likely to just pick their favorite of the 3 options then never touch the other two. When you relevel a class from scratch, it suddenly become a daunting task that is significantly less meaningful when you think to yourself, “Why am I doing this when I could have just hit a button and maybe lose some gold/exp/etc.?”.

There are, of course, some other clever ideas out there. A lot of the ideas will be different flavors of the same basic concepts. The ideal solution is one that addresses the fundamental problem of decision-making versus limited time and is a compromise between players and developers that maintains balance for both.

Also, for those wondering, no - I have not played this game. I have been between jobs and have to manage my finite resources amidst rising costs of living, so I’m hoping for a good black friday or Christmas sale. I have put THOUSANDS of hours into similar ARPGs (POE, Marvel Heroes, Grim Dawn, Titan Quest, Diablo 1/2/3, Torchlight 1/2, etc.), so I kinda know what I’m talking about in general, yet I can be relatively unbiased enough to have an outside perspective. I hope this helps, even in some small way, and I wish everyone the best!

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I have absolutely no idea who that is or what QNAs you are referring to. Honestly no clue & would have to google it (after my reply).

From my own experience in gaming, giving restrictions/rules/criteria is critical… Imagine Chess without any rules? Thats an absurd example but it applies… There have to be limits in place to create challenge, diversity through being creative and just making a game not downright boring as hell…

In aRPG games, you need some sort of ruleset in place (obviously entirely made up by the devs - for better or worse) to govern how the game works… If there were none, then the game would simply be a one character single playthrough game without any point of secondary playthroughs as everyone would just build their own favourite “favourite”, finish the end game content and be done.

Just look at all the builds on this forum… Everyone is based on the restrictions (and benefits) of specific classes/skills/passives… A lot of them are based on someone trying to min/max a particular playstyle as best they can within the restrictions… others are using a very specific set of uniques to achieve a viable build… still others play on the clever interaction of various skills within a restricted class setup to gain maximum benefit… None of this would happen if there were no rules and restrictions on builds… Players are forced to get creative, to create builds outside the proverbial box/even cheese the rules… Without rules? Sure there would probably be a meta for each class… but that would probably be it… no-one other than the die hard fanboys would bother with anything else… what would be the point…

Just put a blank piece of paper in front of kindergarden kids and let them use anything in a room with every possible art craft medium and zero instructions… Sure you might get something from one or two, but more often than not you will have an absolute mess and paint on the ceiling…

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There is a very good example in LE currently, which is an entirely different discussion, but it highlights very well, that having less choices, will increase build variety.

Namely: 5 Skill Slots

If you would have 6 skill slots, the overall build variety would decrease pretty substantially, because the majority of builds would still only use 1 or 2 damage abilities, 1 movement ability and then you have enough space for alot more defensive/utility skills.

If LE would hypothetically adapt to 6 skill slots and increase the numbers of skills that could be used as secondary defensive/utility skills, the build variety might increase again, but just enabling 6 skills would certainly not increase build variety and player choices.

In theory the permutations are exponentially more with 6 instead of 5 skills, but in practice that’s not the case, because there are certain combinations that don’t make any sense or don’t even work together.

That’s one of the reasons, why PoE at first glance has an absurd number of skills/potential combination, but in reality the build variety for a given skill is pretty limited.

Giving players restrictions, does serve a very good design purpose.
You can disagree or agree with that, but when you play a video game, the devs make the rules and you should try your best working around that.

I think the one who is screaming here is you. Calling names and being harsh doesn’t help at all.

Free leveling is what I want most, rather than resetting the mastery. Playing the story mode from the beginning is tiring for every character, it’s boring. If we finish it once, instead of playing every character again, it would be great to use a system like the Crucible in Grim Dawn or farm directly in the regions of the story mode as we want.

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I have to sort-of agree. I’m at 61 characters, and leveling up a new build is tedious. I’d like some sort of option to fast-level a new character if I have at least 1 who has completed the campaign.

My only concern would be how to gear it. :slight_smile:

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Either fast level, or normal pace but with another method than the campaign.

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I would like to clarify once again:

For me there are 15 classes, and I think it’s very good that EHG tries to implement those 15 archetypes in a halfway plausible way. I will continue to welcome this and in a few years at most welcome a few more.

Maybe as an idea as follows:

If I’m not mistaken (or that only dreamed *smile *) should be among the still upcoming end-game mechanics something that builds on the existing campaign maps; possibly a kind of bounty hunting as in Diablo 3?
→ If that should be so, you could, after you have defeated the campaign boss for the first time but add another option, which says that in the normal campaign of a further, leveling character just that mechanic (s) is activated by the way.

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To show that no solution fits everyone: I like levelling slowly through campaigns (I know, I am weird).
I never used the crucible in Grim Dawn for exemple, and I hate anything giving xp boosts to alts like in WoW or other MMOs. If something like that was to be implemented, it would have to be optional or I would just quit.
Slow levelling is how I learn to use my skills properly and get ready for tough content; a full instant respec in skills I am not familiar with would mean instant death, even if you follow a guide (and advocates of respec in this thread say they don’t want to follow guides). And I hate dying. :wink:

At the end of the day, I think we are making a mountain of a small thing. Even if you want to try EVERY single skill in the game (and casual players don’t) it would only take 12 characters. Not such a massive number, compared for exemple with PoE at 2-3 characters per season or Grim Dawn if you want to try ALL the combinations (I confess I have had way more than 15 characters in both, all of them levelled through campaign, very often on HC).
Plus I doubt a lot of players would want to try absolutely everything. Myself for exemple, I don’t like minion builds, so that’s already 3-4 masteries I know I will never look at.

PS: Zaodon, 61 characters??? Gasp. And I thought I was an altoholic… :wink:

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Seems to me the “cost” will be lower just to run a new character. Takes me about 2-3 hrs depending on how many distractions and interruptions i have. If the cost to respec mastery is something like 10 x “of centering” shards its going to take you a hell of a lot longer to collect the material cost to the respec than to just level a new char to L25 ish

High cost: probably works if you’re grinding end game content with mastery you enjoy playing. This doesnt work early levels , lets say hour after you chose mastery.

One way probably would be if you can change mastery one more time after you chose first time. In lore wise, maybe forgotten knight appears again and offers you re-pick ?

Just throwing ideas.

Current system works for me.

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This will be also a matter of player’s own play style and the how much time player can to spend in the game.

Personally, I don’t agree with the introduction of power leveling like mastery’s re-spec or GD’s Crucible. (Arena is similar, so I rarely play Arena).
This is partly because I can spend a lot of time playing game.

I don’t like to have one character that makes up for everything. I feel that it is the limitations that make it fun.

You may feel angry when your character has failed, but in the end, it is part of the experience.
For example, when we remake our new character with different skills, discovering that “this skill (combination of skills) makes things so much easier” is definitely one of the joys of this kind of game.

If we can make up for everything with one thing, you can rebuild our build faster and easily of course, but therefore we will likely lose the experience of such realizations and discoveries while leveling, faster and easily too.
I guess this faster and easily choices will makes leading players (of course include me) to faster and easily way because of it has very efficient.
I don’t think that is good.

For skilled players or watchers that other’s twitch etc, no matter how meta and in-game common sense those discoveries may be, I believe “in the end it’s most fun to discover and experience them for ourselves."
Therefore, In my opinion, I don’t agree that making everything re-specable.

Also, if is it very expensive to re-spec, if you run out of currency when you want to re-spec, won’t that make people want to stop playing in the end?
Would you have the energy to recreate your character then on smoothly? :thinking:

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yip i agree current system work just perfect for me … i have levelled 12 mastery chars to between 85 and 100 and change to another build when i get bored or it becomes outdated … you have to play a mastery into empowered before you get a real feel for what it can do … lots build fine in normal then fall over in empowered

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