Add Unique Crafting - Rolling

[nyczalex]

@rayden54

Personally, I think there’s several fundamental flaws with the design of the CoF that need to be addressed first. If they can find a way to bring them in line with each other–which is their stated goal, then maybe we won’t need rerolls.

I think the main concern that needs to fall inline with the system is that you are able to get to and a little over baseline endgame which is 300 corruption according to EHG.

@rayden54

I don’t necessarily think rerolls are the best solution. And even if it is the solution they decide to go with, I think it almost certain that it would be locked to CoF. Or, at the very least would render an item untradable.

I dont agree with rerolls for sure but it does have its pros but not where it surpasses the cons. Idk, that’s what I thought with mats, especially the creation rune but nope.

@rayden54

t the very least I disagree with you that “it’s only a bad design when you have a economy such as this,” unless you think the only people disappointed by bad rolls are in the merchant’s guild. I also disagree with you that this game is an MMO. It’s fundamentally a solo/co-op game with a trading system shoehorned in. That the trading system ended up being better is a foreseeable, but also unintended effect.

I hope I am still in topic as I can’t seem to follow find the argument within this paragraph between us to. Are we talking about the same thing? Nobody likes a bad roll.

The large ranges of a roll for something such as omnis is very important for a MMO. The more people in a game supports, the more range of rolls you want. Not literally but to an extent that seems to be balance where it feels it isn’t impossible but also doesn’t seem like everyone has a perfect roll.

It seems to me there is a lot of debate between this being a MMO and/or solo/co-op game. While all the mechanics are there and a bunch points to solo/co-op and not a “real” mmo,.

This game is most definitely a MMO, simply by definition everywhere, MMO is support large amounts of players through the same server(s) at the same time.

As for EHG’s intentions? They could’ve very well kept the game as a solo/co-op state and they would not have fraction of the problems and complaints they are having now. A huge problem is that they are trying to satisfy both audiences, the one’s that still believes it is a solo/co-op game vs mmo bunch.

[rayden54]

@nyczalex

I hope I am still in topic as I can’t seem to follow find the argument within this paragraph between us to.

I said the current double RNG loot system is bad design because it mostly leads to people being disappointed by their loot and quitting. You said this in response:

@nyczalex

it’s only a bad design when you have a economy such as this.

I disagree.

My entire point is that the loot system is bad because it feels bad to play.

@nyczalex

As for EHG’s intentions? They could’ve very well kept the game as a solo/co-op state and they would not have fraction of the problems and complaints they are having now. A huge problem is that they are trying to satisfy both audiences, the one’s that still believes it is a solo/co-op game vs mmo bunch.

Actually, I think they would’ve have a lot more problems. Most of the problems with the CoF would still be there, but there wouldn’t be a MG to switch to.

This game is also by definition an offline-single player game. In any case I find it funny that you bow to their intentions about 300 corruption, but not to the type of game they’ve made.

[nyczalex]

@DirePenguin

How does a nameless/faceless interaction with an NPC bring Multiplayer together? I would argue POE’s model does far more, in that regard, and we all know how much it is detested.

By making you rely on other players to gear. Is it the best way? Absolutely not. I always hated market systems and much preferred the shops and actual player interaction. This way people need to actually shop and if lucky, find a steal. This also helps with having a higher chance to find what you need without it being automatically statched. Of course there are also many downsides with that model just like everything has its pros and cons.

[EngineerMan666]

@Heavy

People have so unrealistic expectations and hyperbolic statements regarding unique with LP.

This is something I have noticed with many of the post release forum posts. I think @Heavy 's post should be pinned at the top of the forums.

[EngineerMan666]

@GiraffaGonfiabile

The game by design asks a lot of your time in exchange for power. And that requires, at least to some extent, to waste your time. That is part of the ARPG formula and that is also OK.

I don’t feel it is a waste of time at all. I enjoy farming and creeping closer to BiS on a character over time. If you get frustrated in a situation with a toon just switch to another and work on their progress.

Unique items in Last Epoch are akin to the Legendary items in Diablo. Sadly D3 and 4 have made gearing up so fast (you’d be completely done with the season checklist in D3 in a month tops.)

Unique items adding the 1-4 LP possibility just pushes one hundred percent BiS goal post much further afield. They are most definitely not needed for an end game build. They just allow the end of end game to be that much further down the line.

[DirePenguin]

@Kulze

For you. Don’t take that comment and apply it to me though for example. Thanks.

Highlight the spot where I mentioned your name.

@Kulze

Creating it not so much as it shifts the whole crafting mechanic around in major ways.
How do you even get to 2000 health shards? I stopped at 100 for each and got nothing more then 450 of one.

Because I just pick them all up, so I don’t have to scan over them to make sure I don’t miss any I might want – %health/hybrid health/etc. I have 50k-ish shards. EHG had mentioned a while back, that they had some plan to do something with the shard stash, since their plans to make them trade/sellable fell through. But I don’t see that happening before my 3 year-old graduates college, so I was thinking this might be a way to help shrink the bloat of the shard stash, along with creating this new glyph/rune.

[DirePenguin]

@nyczalex

MG is what brings the multiplayer together

How does a nameless/faceless interaction with an NPC bring Multiplayer together? I would argue POE’s model does far more, in that regard, and we all know how much it is detested.

@EngineerMan666

@Heavy

People have so unrealistic expectations and hyperbolic statements regarding unique with LP.

This is something I have noticed with many of the post release forum posts. I think @Heavy 's post should be pinned at the top of the forums.

I’m not sure why, but this just makes me think of the line from Heartbreak Ridge:

" If you wanna pop that puppy’s can you don’t have to grease him so hard, jarhead"

It’s more like those in opposition of it, are so blinded by their staunch draconianism, they refuse to see what’s really being requested. It seems like every time someone requests a change around loot (in any fashion: drop, crafting, pickup, etc), we hear the same, tired, counters from the Gatekeeping Tradionalists:

• It will just turn the game into a <thing_they_dont_like> Simulator
  or
• But giving out perfect rolled BiS gear by lvl 10 will kill da game!!! OH NOES!!!

Allowing players to actually acquire loot, without having to invest 1000s of hours into the game, will not kill the game. Why? If making gear impossible to obtain was the magic trick to player retention, every game would just make gear impossible to obtain, and no game would ever die, right? Or, is the key to player retention more focused around quality content?

I think you can look to the 3 major players in the genre, right now, and kind of get an idea:

Blizzard: D3 has easy gear, but no content. No retention. D4 has tough/semi-tough gear acquisition, and about the same content as LE. It’s in the process of re-tooling systems to fix player retention and satisfaction.

POE: Gear acquisition varies, depending on your skill with crafting. But everything can be traded, crafted etc etc. Has tons of content, and is easily the king of the genre, ATM.

LE: When you get past the optics surrounding the developers, LE is more similar to D4, at this moment. About the same content. Same attitude towards the campaign. And the gear chance is very close as well – both have tons of drops, with only very few being worthwhile. And the (current) crafting systems are limited (LE by FP and D4 by only being able to craft 1 affix).

I bet that if LE were actually a Blizzard game, it would be getting raked through the coals. It gets a lot more leeway, because it is done by a smaller, indie team, whom have a much more cordial relationship with their audience.

Even so, would argue that the game’s content is more of a driver of player retention, than if gear can realistically be obtained, or is gated behind 1000s of hours of required time investment. But, that’s just me (I want to avoid putting words into certain people’s mouths), I play games for the enjoyment/escapist aspect, not because I crave having a 2nd or 3rd job, and just want to grind after grind after grind after grind, with little to no reward/payoff.

[Kulze]

@DirePenguin

Because I just pick them all up, so I don’t have to scan over them to make sure I don’t miss any I might want

Ah, I just pick them up when there’s a highlighted one, hence a more rare drop. I think hybrid and % fall into that category as well, though I’m not sure anymore now

I hope that they work around the shards since currently it’s an arbitrary system with those having to be picked up manually + stored once again. Just a bother rather then a proper commodity.

@DirePenguin

Allowing players to actually acquire loot, without having to invest 1000s of hours into the game, will not kill the game.

Well, how to achieve it though?
Pure deterministic systems are the death of diablo-clones, because the large RNG factor through drop variance makes it the specific sub-genre in the first place.

Too much variance also makes it hard to upgrade and hence see no end in sight.
Too little leads to situations where people are progressing very fast and are through with the content too quickly.

Good examples can be seen with the PoE god-tier items as you can after all theoretically craft every single item (outside uniques) on your own. But the end-result of the large variance in crafting options, bases, influences and weighting of the different mods makes some craft-combinations nigh impossible no matter how much effort you put it. The option would be using 10k+ perfected base items for it or spending 50k+ mirrors in value in crafting materials. Obviously both not realistic.

So it’s not as ‘easy’ as you make it out to be.

In LE this concept goes for the LP items, acquisition and chance-based outcomes cause them to be nigh impossible to acquire with high LP.

@DirePenguin

I bet that if LE were actually a Blizzard game, it would be getting raked through the coals.

Yes, because Blizzard with their hundreds of millions of dollars in capital and over 10 times the amount of devs should hence provide several times more content then LE does in the same timeframe + have it polished to a high degree.
Let’s take a look at D4… oh… shucks… not the case there either

It comes down to either creating a system which removes the variance a bit without trivializing the whole system or waiting on future content which causes more systems to interact with the current loot drop variance or even create new ones so the old systems can be adjusted accordingly.