A New Chapter for Eleventh Hour Games

It won’t be fact, but a highly educated guess based on past results and patterns. How do you think the scientific method works? Scientists observe something once and say “this is fact”?

  • Observe/Question
  • Research
  • Hypothesis
  • Test
  • Analyze
  • Report
  • Loop back to Observe

In this case we can follow the situation as follows

  • Observation: EHG was aquired by Krafton
  • Research: Krafton has a proven track record of their games failing after aquisition. This could be coincidence.
  • Hypothesis: EHG and Last Epoch will fail due to their acquisition by Krafton
  • Test: Currently at this phase
  • Analyze: Ongoing during the Test phase
  • Report: We’ll know if they failed or not by this point and why they failed.

Not really. If option B was “devs have been taken over by alien brain slugs”, option A being false doesn’t make option B true. There are more than 2 options & im reasonably sure you are aware of that.

From your 2 stated options, A being false doesn’t make B true, it just means B is more likely/reasonable than A but that’s not necessarily a particularly high bar.

There are also other, more viable options, possibly including my alien brain slug suggestion.

Yes, even inside a pink fluffy unicorn as long as said unicorn is not dancing on a rainbow.

No, they moved the goal posts as to what was defined as a planet. It’s not like they did any new betterer observations & realised that previous observations were wrong.

No, it’s a class of celestial objects that fall within certain parameters. Change the parameters & some objects that were in bucket #1 (planet) no longer are. But it’s not a fact.

One of the most highly tested & successful theories, yes.

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Not disagreeing with any of this. I will note, however, that a lot of people are operating with incomplete information on this piece:

We know that they’ve had issues in the past, but we don’t know why those issues have occurred and whether it was Krafton’s fault, specifically. People in this thread are jumping the gun because it’s easier to do that than take a nuanced approach. The most that can be said right now is that there is a trend that is concerning in isolation.

That being said, a healthy degree of skepticism is always a good thing.

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Reminder for fellow observers of this derailing of the thread that “Theory” in scientific terms and “theory” in laymans terms do not have the same definition.

Theory (in science): a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena

Theory (in common vernacular): a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation | an unproved assumption or a conjecture

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Fair, I do forget that for non-scientifically trained people it means something very, almost completely, different (especially if you’re a biblical literalist or flat earther).

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True, which is why I left the caveat of “this could be coincidence”

But I’ll remind you of a famous quote: “Once is chance, twice is coincidence, thrice is enemy action.”

It’s entirely plausible that the vast majority of Krafton’s acquisitions failed due to variables entirely outside of Krafton’s control. It’s far more likely that they failed because of Krafton.

Which leads me to a famous philosophical principle with Occam’s Razor: “of two competing theories, the simpler explanation of an entity is to be preferred.” Which is simpler: “Krafton’s acquisitions failed because of X, Y, Z that they couldn’t control” or “Krafton’s acquisitions failed due to mismanagement by Krafton”? in lieu of more information that only the inner workings of Krafton and said acquisitions could have, I’m going with the latter.

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Yeah, I wasn’t correcting you but was trying to enhance your response to Kulze who I believe implied that a scientific theory was the same as making a conjecture about Krafton

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Kulze also neglected to mention which theory of relativity (general or special), but that’s just me being pedantic.

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Just when I bought this game… Well, at least I had a great time with it. It’s not about being negative or anything, but Krafton have a… history…

I’d like to add into the discussion that a very similar reaction was shown when the Tencent investment was made.

We really do have to just wait and see. For some this may mean not buying into any more MTXs, and for others it may mean business as usual until they see an actual change in the game that they don’t like, and still for others it may mean they quit playing (at least for now).

For me it’s just business as usual until I see what actually happens to the game itself.

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If you look at the Reddit of Tera Online you can see several post-mortem feedbacks on why people think it happened.

If you put the general notions together you find the most discussed ones and the ones seen as the biggest issues.

The first was ping issues without a proxy. 25 million registered players and basically Afrixa, East Asia and Australia had a baseline ‘unplayable’ game.

Optimization. Tera was at the times out when Skyrim was big, vastly less models and details but still couldn’t handle even 30 FPS in PvP zones. That was to a large degree because for some ‘smart’ reason they made a x32 version and had no x64 version back then, kinda baffling for the missing support of something that was the basis by then.

Another major was active removal of content.
There were floating guild castles… removed.
Alliances? Removed.
Events? Removed.
Dumbing down leveling process similar to what ‘Star Wars Galaxies’ did… which by the way was a major reason for the ultimate downfall of that game.
Gear progression materials and recipes being removed.
Even so far as removing the parts of the original story.

One of the major issues was their expansion towards level 70 which was not like 1-65 but similar to the top-end grind of Black Desert Online, which - understandably - turned players off from the game, even korean ones. It took them a long while to rework that aspect to add a questline to progress through it in a normal way.

Instead people got non lore-friendly cosmetics and mounts, so basically it become ‘slob’.

Another reason was that a modding group created a proxy server so finally people could play in areas not formerly able to play because of ping issues.
The reaction of the devs was not to praise them, simply disallow the client or take inspiration.
Nono… they banned the inventors and forbade the usage… not that anyone listened anyway for obvious reasons.

A core reason was that Bluehole (the developers back then, owned by Krafton) were focusing on Elyon instead of Tera and kept it in ‘maintenance mode’ basically. Elyon failed, Tera failed as well.

So a myriad of reasons all put together. Major mismanegement, lack of reaction, wrong directions, abundant monetization without care for the world they’re released in.

Then we can move over to PUBG which had their share-prices nosediving massively in 2021 and beyond. India banned PUBG mobile because of security concerns, this changed this years though. Pakistan did the same in 2022.
Cheating is prevalent to a vast degree, this point specifically is mentioned as a core cause of why players move over to Fortnite and Apex Legends rather then staying in PUBG nowadays still.
Not to speak of controversies like the failing of their automated banning system. One such case caused hundreds of people to be banned without fault, making a official apology out about it… and then a week later banning them anyway out of the blue as PUBG wanted to not do any compensation of apologies for the second failure, many left the game there for obvious reasons.
Then they had a viewbot incident as well, 80000 viewers with basically no interactions, sudden influx and no change in chatting speed.
Every single year their tournaments are riddled with hacks and hence repeatedly players which should be banned come out on top to then be disqualified.
They went directly after a leak poster via law, claiming damages. This practice is frowned upon (going after them, not the datamining), as will lawfully it’s seen as damages to the company the business knows full well that it causes massive engagement. This killed off the north american PUBG community which was already struggling. Competition reprimanded them, pro scene officials and commentators went away. Other areas were majorly pissed off as well since they didn’t do anything to the chinese market with the same things happening so their argument of ‘working on principle’ was flawed and dismantled immediately.

That all was before they manipulated payout probabilities. They never noticed anyone despite it being publicly showcased that the system was either bugged or intentionally wrongly set, only Korea got the information about that, that pissed off even more players.
Then we got an instance were a operator abused his position to ban anyone which killed him in-game.
Then we got the controversy of the ‘New Jeans’ collab which once again did mess with the probabilities of return.

I only picked a few of the controversies over the time. Especially the cheating ones in their official tournaments is basically prevalent, happened over and over and over every year.

Yes, it is.
But Krafton is the publisher, they own those companies, they have 100% say in things. It’s their job to push the developers to do the proper things and not make a mess out of stuff, that is included in their job literally.

In case of a publisher the failures of the developers are also the failures of the publisher. Quality assurance is in their job description.

It is, as their job as a publishers include the QA.
And since a substantial part of the reason why the games failed or struggle are related QA it’s Krafton’s fault.

Yes, and I was on the other side of the fence back then. I shrugged my shoulders and knew the chance for nothing bad to happen was massive comparatively to something bad happening because of it.

They have another track record after all.

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No need for sarcasm just to try and keep on discussing.
Yes, they knew it, and they speak openly about it.

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This said they knew there would be “shock reactions.” It didn’t say they knew it was a bad decision and didn’t care about their player base.

Knowing there would be “shock reactions” could mean multiple things, not just that players would think it was the worst thing that could ever happen and that the game would be dead in the short future.

EHG likely looked at the probability that some of the user base would have a strong dislike for the decision and that others would be doubtful, but could have also thought that others would just be “shocked” at their decision with no real dislike or negativity.

It any case, they probably looked at all their options and considered the possible reactions of the player base and came to the conclusion that this was the “best course of action” they had at the time. The player base has to always be a primary part of the decision,.

I am here as fan from day 1. I bought and played this game, when the game looked bad and there was nothing more to do then Run throught the “story” und do monolith, without any further goal. I supported you and hoped to see LE become the next thing on the ARPG marked, a studio that valued the players and that understood the genre… And now this, taking a quick cash grab, from one of the industies worst publisher, who is known for bad pratices…

I am not sure if will come back for season 3… but at the moment i cant fathom supporting this decision with money or even playtime…

Maybe i am wrong and all will be fine, be i harshly doubt it with Kraftons trackrecord…

Surprisingly reading the thread among all the discussion and debates I get the feeling that a lot of people still care for the game even if they express their opinions in polar ways and color their messages with different emotions.

But people still care even after controversial decision (by community standards as we are not purview to internal business state). People can be harsh and forgetting that the games are actually made by people with lives too.

Ultimately it will be up to EHG to prove if their statement will be truthful or the history will keep repeating.

Maybe a “we see you and your concern” message would be good too.

The situation is completely different from the Tencent investment. Tencent didn’t have ultimate control over EHG like Krafton does

You mean “up to Krafton”. People cannot seem to wrap their head around this concept, EHG staff included. EHG may retain creative control, for now, but with Krafton having ultimate control over what’s added to the game it doesn’t matter at all what cool stuff EHG “creatively” comes up with as Krafton simply has to say “that won’t make money, rejected.” And that “cool creative EHG idea” is scrapped. EHG’s “creative control” needs to line up with “make Krafton more money” or it’ll be rejected.

Can some really great ideas align with both goals? Absolutely. But not everything EHG or the players want to see will line up with the “make Krafton more money” goal. So it’s up to Krafton to trust EHG and the players that some of these ideas will make them more money long term and let EHG implement them. Personally, I don’t see that happening given the track record

And even if Tencent is known to be hands-off unless something dumb happens. Then they get hands-on with QA control.

Sounds like u are clueless about who kraton is as a company and whag they are know for. Which is p2w and predatory microtransaction.

Yes huge chunk of the player base is concerned as has been pointed out countless times.

Let me ask u this. With kraftons history. What makes this game any different. What part of kraftons track record points to these predatory practices not becoming a thing at some point.

So why this game why now. Why would it be any different? There track record doesnt support it being any different.

Edit the histroy of EHG doeent matter anymore. They have no control over what happens with LE now. Krafton does. Krafton is also known for telling devs things like being hands off and not actually doing what they say. The ship is being steered by krafton now not EHG. Its kraftons history we need to look at now.

If it would have been 10 cent u would have a valid point with EHG history. Since 10 cent has proven over many yrs that they are hands off when it come to thier investments. 10 cent is known for this. Krafton isnt at all. They are known for injecting p2w and predatory microtransaction. If krafton had a procen track record of being hands off. Ur point about EHGs history would be valid.

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Yeah, right? But, apparently, Judd is living in another universe…

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As if he’s allowed to say anything else. They’re the boss now, you don’t talk openly bad about your employer unless you wanna talk bad about your now former employer :rofl:

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