A different take on Auto-Cast

This is probably going to get a bit rambly, so I’ll start with the tldr. It probably won’t make much sense without reading the rest though.

tldr: Last Epoch should add Auto-Cast functionality in order to reduce the amount of Auto-Cast in the game.

Confusing? Probably, so on the the longer version.

I just hit empowered monoliths for the first time, having created my most enjoyable build yet. The catch - it’s an Auto-Cast build. I didn’t set out to make a build around Auto-Cast, it happened organically as I played the character. I started by trying to build around various active skills, but I found one that was much more effective than all the others. Basically, if it was off cooldown and I wasn’t casting it I was just losing DPS. There’s no decision making, casting that ability whenever possible is just always the right choice.

Eventually I decided to give the Numlock trick a try and the build just started playing much better. Since I no longer needed to spend any mental effort on casting my primary ability whenever its cooldown elapsed, I could focus more on my secondary abilities and positioning. Paradoxically, the build actually became MORE active and engaging when I automated my most mindless skill and instead focused on everything else. I’m targeting down tough enemies with a cooldown ability, using CC to interrupt dangerous attacks, paying more attention to my positioning, and dodging telegraphed attacks. The build feels amazing, and it makes me a little hesitant to even write this post because I risk drawing attention to it since it seems to go against the design philosophy Eleventh Hour has discussed in the past. I’m only doing this because I think there’s potential to learn from it and make the game even better.

Now there are two main reasons that I can see a developer wanting to avoid auto-cast. The first is bots, the idea that adding auto-cast will make it easier for bots to automate farming and ruin the economy. This is a fools errand, as scripting tools are too good and minion builds can be automated more effectively than any build using auto-cast anyway. Auto-Cast doesn’t help them by any significant amount, but not having it just makes it more likely that honest players trying to smooth out an inconvenience in the game will get caught up in attempts to ban bots. Basically, the “popsicle stick” issue from PoE if you’re familiar, which they’ve finally started trying to address by giving players in-game tools to smooth out the thing they were resorting to out-of-game tools to bypass.

The second reason is the desire to keep the gameplay active, and that’s the one that Eleventh Hour seems to be going for. This is a reasonable goal, as long as its not taken too far. If a significant number of builds become focused more on Auto-Cast than their active skills, then the gameplay will become more passive as a result. The thing is, some people don’t want to cycle through a 5 skill rotation so having some supporting Auto-Cast skills can actually get them more engaged.

So why do I think that adding Auto Cast will reduce Auto Casting? Data! If you implement a very simple in-game Auto Cast feature, you also get access to information about every single player using it. You can look at their builds, check trends, and compile data about every single skill that someone wants to Auto-Cast. This then lets you go back and look at those builds and see if there really is a design issue that needs to be addressed.

If a particular skill is being heavily Auto-Casted, you can pull those builds and get a very good look into why they’re doing it. Are these builds fun and engaging to play? Is it a skill that is too strong when Auto-Cast and needs to be redesigned? Does a build lack good options for its 4th or 5th skill slot so players are just slotting some random thing in and Auto Casting it because there’s nothing better for them to do with their skill bar?

So my suggestion is to continue the approach of trying to design your skills such that actively using them is optimal, but also implement a basic numlock style auto-cast so that you can gather data on the skills that don’t meet that standard. We already know that implementing the equivalent of always holding down a key won’t somehow break the game, because if it could then the numlock trick would have already done it. It just lets you take something that people were already able to do through out-of-game tools and bring it into the game proper, which then lets you learn from and control it directly.

Personally I feel that any ability that feels like auto-cast is necessary, need a revamp. Like there is no difference between auto-casting a buff skill(or god bless you, manual casting) and the potion mechanic in PoE that EHG tries to avoid. The only difference is one button vs 5 button.

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Quick question - Do you think Bone Golem should be removed from the game? It’s basically as interactive as an Auto-Cast skill, but I think you’ll see some resistance if you proposed the removal of every permanent summon because they’re not active enough for your personal tastes.

I did not propose removal, but a revamp, a modification, an upgrade, an improvements or whatever other synonyms.

And auto-cast aside, I don’t see how a permanent summon that requires no click the same as some skills need frequent clicks every few seconds for buffs. I also don’t think that devs has intention to keep auto-cast function that is only available to player with numpad. The devs might only closed one eye until they came up with a decision/solution, either a revamp, a removal or making autocast a permanent function ingame.

I feel like you missed the point. Permanent summons are 1 click abilities, just like Auto Cast. With both, you turn them on and you’re done. It’s the same level of interactivity. If you’re saying that auto-casting skills is bad gameplay but a permanent summon is fine you’re contradicting yourself.

So if all auto-casting is always bad because the player doesn’t need to activate it more than once, then by extension all permanent summons are also bad. Therefor, by your logic all permanent summons should be removed from the game, or redesigned to be temporary summons or something. I can guarantee to you that summoner players won’t like that.

As for disabling Numpad autocast, it’s almost impossible. The trick is a hardware issue. Every key sends a signal when it is activated, and another when it is deactivated. The software can only see these two signals and take action based on them. The trick causes the keyboard to send an ‘activated’ signal but never send the ‘deactivated’ signal. For the software, there’s no difference between this and someone just holding down a key. You could disable keybinds to the numpad or do something that would apply to everyone who holds down a key for too long, but that’s about it.

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Our difference in understanding each other is because of the different assumption on autocast as a feature. To you, it is a legitimste feature of LE. To me, it is a bug that only benefit people that has certain hardware.

Hence, your question to me on permanent summon vs autocast is moot and does not need answering to reach a consensus. You feel they are the same and I think they are different. Both opinions are valid depending on the perspectives we see it from.

Hence we are back to the autocast function. There are 4 things that can happen in the future:

  1. It stay as it is currently
  2. The autocast skills got revamped
  3. It got removed in some way
  4. It become inbuilt feature so that it benefit all players.

You like option #4 and I like option #2. That is all there is to it. #3 might be possible, might be impossible depending on how creative the solution is.

EDIT: elaborating further, I do not imply that using autocast is bad gameplay. I am saying
some specific skills without using autocast is bad gameplay. And autocast is not available to all players so the skill need revamp.

We do appear to be talking past each other. I never said that the numlock trick was good for the game or that it is a legitimate feature in its current state. In fact, the whole point of my original post was that the game should have built in auto-cast so that players DON’T use the numlock trick. That lets the developers more easily track what is getting auto-cast and why, so they can better design their game around it.

If you want them to revamp every skill that players currently use the numlock trick to auto-cast, then my suggestion is an optimal path to that end. Making it part of the game gives them perfect data on which skills players are auto-casting, and then they can go redesign those skills. Redesign every skill so that players don’t want to use them through auto-cast, and then the feature falls into disuse because it isn’t needed anymore.

This then moves the question to “is auto-casting a skill good gameplay?” at which point the comparison to summons is very relevant. The gameplay of a permanent summon and an auto-cast skill are virtually identical, so if one is bad then they must both be bad. If you’re going to make the case that every skill someone currently wants to auto-cast MUST need a redesign because it always indicates a gameplay issue with the skill, then the same would be true for permanent summons.

My point is I do not want an inbuilt autocast system. Player will use whatever means available to them to play the most efficient way. There is no knowing what tincan of worms that will be opened in the future by legitimizing the function, like more and more skills being autocasted.

We can also already know the problematic skills from the amount of complaint/feedbacks on inconvenient skills. There is no need for an inbuilt feature to gather data on it. It is not like we have hundreds of skills to sift through.

I don’t get your fixation on summoning skill comparison. But, let me entertain this notion once: permanent summon is casted once and lasts a very long time. Buff skills like Sigils of hope is an active skills that are designed to be casted 3-5 times every 30-60 second. Autocast is an exploit and not an intended way of playing the skill by the dev. That is my perspective.

My main problem with autocast is that not all players have access to numpad. So either inbuilt it or remove it. I prefer it to be removed+revamp the skill so the skill is easier to use. And yes, in my opinion, all skills that is intended to be casted, but is now autocasted have to be revamped. Sure they can make it like aura similar to permanent minion. I do not have anything against the permanent gameplay aspect unlike what you have assumed, as long as it is not an exploit.

I couldn’t care less what the intended use of a skill is. The question is, is the skill fun to use? Does it make the game fun to play? The intent of the developer is basically irrelevant once the game is in the player’s hands. Either it is fun or it isn’t. Good game design is all about making the experience fun for the player.

There’s a very important lesson that every good game designer should know - you never try to tell the players how to play your game. Good design encourages the player to WANT to play the game in the way that is most fun, while bad design tries to restrict the player from playing the game in the way they want to because the developer thinks they know better.

So if the player wants to auto-cast a skill one of two things is generally true.

  1. The skill is actually fun to use through auto-cast.
  2. The skill is poorly designed and players want to use auto-cast to avoid engaging with it.

This is where you NEED data, because the answer isn’t going to be the same for every skill. Sometimes a build with an auto-cast skill can be a lot of fun. Other times it’s a bad skill and needs an overhaul. I guarantee that there isn’t one right answer that would apply to every skill in LE.

Also we do know what will happen if auto-cast is part of the game, because for anyone with a numpad and a bit of knowledge it already is. If the game could be broken by just using a skill every time it was off cooldown it would have happened already. The skill I’m auto-casting, yeah everyone talking about it on the forums seems to be doing the same so it’s not like it’s some sort of secret.

So let me see if I understand your position:

If they add the ability to auto-cast Sigil of Hope that would be bad design.

If they gave Sigil of Hope infinite duration so it only needs to be cast once, that’s good design.

Even though these two things are functionally identical gameplay, one is good gameplay and the other is bad gameplay. Is that right? So tell me this, why is one of those two more fun than the other? I don’t care about developer intent or any of that nonsense, just fun. Why would adding auto-cast on cooldown make the game less fun? Give me one singe skill that, if it were allowed to be auto-cast, would make the game less fun to play. I’ll wait…

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First, not everyone knows about autocast. Not everyone who plays the game visited this forum or reddit. I would warrant a guess that we are actually the minority here.

Sure, disregarding that current autocast is an outside gameplay exploit, devs intention and how a player play can be different. The recent patch on Holy Trail is one such example where non-intended gameplay is found and accepted. It still did not change my opinion on autocast.

A skill ease-of-use lies on a spectrum, from totally unusable to permanently active. Having autocast as an inbuilt feature would effectively skew autocast usage towards anything that is even slightly inconvenient as long as it is feasible. Reminder again that not every players know about the autocast. Thus, having autocast feature limits the skill design choice that the devs can make, to always be convenient. Slight inconvenience in exchange for power should still be a viable design for example if sigil of hope gives all stacks in one cast or last much longer.

Then for example, if a skill need to be nerfed because it is being too strong auto-casted with the inbuilt feature, there will be legion of complaints that don’t care what the devs’ original intention are. All espousing their build being bricked and devs being incompetent. Heck, there are already several threads with such tone in this forum even on an open beta. It will be worse when it is on full release. These are the cans of worm that we should avoid.

On a scenario where autocast does not exist and the game being online, there are still many other data to analyze skills. Like how many players with same build has specialize the skill, what is the feedback, uptime etc. Less optimal, sure, but this incremental benefit of having the inbuilt autocast does not outweigh its consequence.

Personally I think it can be fun to have 1 or 2 abilities automated, surely I’m not alone? There’s a reason people enjoy putting together auto-bomber builds.

Nope, you are not alone. I have tried to build fire aura myself. I am specifically talking about autocast using numpad and making that an inbuilt feature of the game that is applicable to all skills.

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So you agree that having automated skills is fun but decided to derail my thread about how the developers should make a change that will stop people from using the numpad trick just because you don’t like that people use the numpad trick?

You sir, are a strange individual.

How did I derail the thread? I just stated my opinion on autocasting ability using numpad. Many times I try to end the discussion, only to be egged on giving further argument on permanent summon vs autocast. Please re-read the thread and check your replies. My point on not preferring inbuilt autocast is still relevant to your topic btw.

I don’t like people using macro for comboing skills or auto-aim in fps game as well. Both arguably make game more fun, and I don’t like people using them.

EDIT: and you sir, need to learn on having discussion rather than trying to win an argument in a forum thread.

The only real way to eliminate auto cast is to cause the skill to trigger on key release instead of depress, and even then that is difficult balancing act.
Sigil of Hope is the best example. I have stated that should be a channel up the available charges, use up the required mana and release, it applies and you wont have to worry about it until the next channel (whenever the dev decide that).

Since this topic is not particularly fresh or there were already a few of these threads in the past, I would like to introduce a few additional thoughts at this point, which probably did not exist before:

→ Every ability is designed to “fill” a certain role [from - to], right?
→ For example, some abilities only work with certain types of weapons.
→ Some abilities are designed as “primary standard attack”.
→ Other abilities more as “situational bomb” [powerhouse with cooldown etc].
→ Some are Movements…
→ Some purely for the sake of the theme as “pure support”.
→ etc. etc.

A few rhetorical questions about this:
a) Who would change in the middle of the fight for example 4 times the weapon type and to change from one “primary standard attack” to the next?
b) Similar with “situational bombs”: Even if it would work in principle, but who would voluntarily wait in the middle of the fight ONLY for the 5 more or less long cooldowns to ignite the 5 abilities one after the other as soon as available - and most likely with consistently rather weak because unoptimized abilities which probably can not be adjusted in sum in equipment, passive skill tree or anywhere else properly and especially ALL EQUALLY reasonable?
c) A little role-playing fantasy inspiring: Which warrior rubs, while he beats the enemies with his two-handed sword, so in the middle of the fight every 4 seconds [recently] his rings or the amulet to maintain his buffs?
d) Alternatively, imagine a mage who has to mutter his spell every 4 seconds to maintain his buffs while yelling the more damage-heavy formulas in between?
f) Why would a necromancer be able to resurrect an undead for only a few seconds, is he still stuck in his training?
g) …and so on…

The fact that you have to catch your breath after a really power-sapping ability and thus get a “cooldown” still seems plausible to me. :joy:

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