Quite. Plus for the uber-skilled like Abom, that should be trivial so the +2 trumps +1 any day. I’m surprised he didn’t know about it, even I did & I’ve not done Aberroth.
To be fair the roll-range of omnis promises a potential higher outcome for the resistances, which could - theoretically - be a better total end-result since it can open Affixes otherwise.
Also the evade downside can be deadly while the mana is often a dead stat for builds.
The implicits, armor, skills and all-res on it though? Ridiculously strong.
A strong contender which depends on the build if it’s better or worse though.
ok now this has got me giggling. If you’re still here, then you did not really quit. wth 
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Abomb, this is the last time I will respond to you. I am adding you to my ignore list, because you keep trying to attack me as a person instead of adding anything of value to the discussion. Your replies do not help the OP, and they do not address what I posted at all. In multiple forum threads you completely ignore any logic or reason and just reply with “No you’re wrong! wrong wrong wrong!” Over and over, and it’s wasting my time.
I responded to this topic, to kindly let the OP know that, while they may really want this item, and it may be a great item, they don’t have to lose hope that it’s rare. They can easily get all of Omnis effects from other sources, and still get the build they want. I’m only interested in helping OP, not arguing with trolls.
It’s not wrong to let other players know that they don’t need to lose hope or get frustrated, that there is another way for them to accomplish their goal.
I sincerely hope that OP understands that Omnis is only one convenient way to cap resists, but there are many many other ways to do that, and as for the crit rate and +1 to all skills that are also on Omnis, those are also easily attainable from other sources. OP, if you read this, just know that you can still reach your stat goals without Omnis, and it will be a lot easier than farming for Omnis with it’s low drop rate, or trying to buy it off the marketplace. Good luck!
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Completely untrue and I have never “attacked you” no idea where you get that from.
Your replies don’t help the OP as I pointed out. I’ve also explained where the OP is coming from and why people quit. Which you don’t understand. I understand why the OP is quitting, I been there done that when not getting the item I need. It’s why most people quit LE and ARPGs. (no idea why you can’t see that?)
The OP needs it though. So I hope that he gets it, his best option likely is quitting or try MG and buying one which helps a lot with RNG. At least you can sell items and eventually buy one. If the OP can’t get it I understand that quitting LE is the best option. It feels bad not being able to attain the gear you need.
Item acquisition and the economy are why LE is in such a bad state right now and died so quickly. Hopefully 1.2 it’s better and the Devs can change this so players decide to keep playing.
What do you guys think should be the average time a player should have to invest to get any item they want/need so they can play their very specific build? How would you design or implement that?
@Kulze speaks of the casual core audience and what their experience is. This ‘I need exactly this item with this specific rolls’ is - IMHO - not a casual attitude towards the game. That’s a player who plans ahead, who has a specific build in mind. When deciding on a build, one can already do a reality check on how likely it is to get this build going in a timeframe that fits into their frustration threshold. My advice is: if it requires some very specific items that could be time-consuming to get and your frustration threshold is low, don’t play that build.
Guaranteed 3 LP slam where you get the 3 out of 4 affixes you want? The average should be 25% of the attempts working as you intended. To have a probability > 95%, you require 11 attempts. For 99%, it’s 16 attempts.
That means that for every 100 players who try this, there is probably one who fails 16 attempts in a row.
That kind of discussion will result in forum member Alt+F4…
It starts with defining what a casual player is in the first place. Your perception @HorusKBZ appears to be those are the people who stumble over the game or fall for the marketing, have no plan at all, enjoy it initially and, provided they survive Campaign-Lagon, quit once they reach empowered monoliths. “Advanced Casuals” use a guide from Maxroll and thus have a pretty good understand of what they need - or believe what they need.
I see that a bit differently considering myself a casual most of the time. Even as casual you can get totally lost in a game including theory crafting and everything, just that you have a much lower frustration tolerance. Healthy behavior one could argue. So less patience and a lower Alt-F4 threshold. Combilne that with average skill and knowledge and you have a casual.
Casuals also do not reach T3T4 Julfra so no chance to putting the good 1LP items CoF spits out to use. They are just gathering dust in the stash.
Finally I believe that casuals often play suboptimal. They are bored and deviate from the proven build path, don’t stick to the char but instead level an alt because they enjoy the easy progress. They stop chasing item A because item B looks okayish (which it is not in reality) or because someone on the forum tells them.
So what a casual is is actually a pretty huge gray area.
As for your actual question:
Thinking about it I believe there should be items which are really hard to get for guys such as @Heavy, good dedicated players with skill and knowledge. But I believe there should also be strong items for the less blessed and those should require a time investment, but less skills and knowledge. Needless to say that the first group of players gets those as well.
Into the first group of items fall e.g. Aberoth’s items, into the second the red ring. Problem is that the latter is just too RNG dependent. No matter how long you play, you might never see one (I did not). Casuals might never reach the corruption required to significantly increase the odds. I for example play between 200C and 250C since weeks, no matter the character.
I believe the feeling of success is important and success is somewhat coupled to progression. My progression, just as an example, more or less came to a halt. Since then I leveled an alt, which I could not get any further, dispite using a known OP build. So I just went back to my Warpath Paladin.
So the question for me is less what time investment “warrants” some specific item, but more whether or how the LEs shortcomings (real or perceived ) will be adressed. I think that @Kulze was actually spot on during the last one or two weeks in multiple posts.
- Endgame drops suck big time, it is neigh impossible to get the base/subtype with specific affixes.
- LP system has too much dead space (why have 4LP when you are not supposed to have it) and is a complete drag. Julra is the icing on the cake. Many of the common uniques would actually be worth it if one could get a 3LP version, but those are often rarer then 2LP versions of the hard to get items. So they are mostly useless which is a shame. I just looked in my stash and I have found exactly 11 3LP items in 1.1. (maybe 400 hours) ) and of course they are completely useless for both of my chars.
- Crafting is a joy until you reach empowered monos where the fun suddenly is replaced by drag and frustration as well. All the runes and glyphs don’t prevent constant bricking.
And a very short answer to your question: I am drowning under the pille of Siphon Anguish. So yes, I fell kind of entitled to get a 3LP one, but no luck so far.
Depends on how ‘lofty’ the goal is.
I’m of the mind that LE has a very very massive itemization and progression issue in total.
And I’m also someone who is of the mind that a fantastic developer has the foresight to plan their itemization system through from start to finish, aligning it with their content, their designed end-point and still allowing long-term players to min-max their builds.
Which leads to:
Can I?
How?
Usually that’s the task of the game-dev to market it so we go in with a specific expectation. It’s not the job of a player to do that up-front and see if the itemization for the game has the proper progression rate… that’s implemented in how the game is marketed.
And I can only repeat ‘LE is marketed as needing more investment then D3 but less then PoE’, that’s their position on the market they took up.
Content-wise it aligns at the upper level. Bosses are easier then those in PoE but definitely also harder then in D3, general content can be run as far as you can push it.
But items?
That’s… a mess.
No matter if I come from D3, D4, Torchlight Infinite or PoE, I can expect to get a specific percentile of the whole road to the best items of the game.
In PoE it’s a Mageblood, Headhunter, some rare well-crafted weapon that does a boatload of damage and drops with some top-tier rolls fitting together… or happening by chance during crafting (more often).
In Torchlight it’s the rare items with good starting mods and you having the ability to get a decent outcome from the first little bit of their crafting process.
In D4 it’s a good general item drop with all the right affixes on it, or some of the rare uniques.
It all always aligns… some better… some worse.
What they all have in common though is that they provide a starting point and a end-point, some of the end-points are extremely hard to reach (Torchlight, Path of Exile) but you can do it.
Last Epoch in comparison has some extremely rare uniques, but they messed a few things up in terms of overall itemization.
The first is… LP, the base system of it. Why allow extremely rare item to even get up to 4 LP theoretically? People will strive for it without realizing it’s impossible. Don’t provide it, it causes frustration and we’ve seen that so sooooo many times already. ‘Can’t even get a 2 LP boss-drop unique!’ ‘I need a 3 LP boss-drop unique!’ ‘Can’t progress further anymore!’. So… EHG should’ve left this upper limit out and instead implemented a staggered reduction in how high the highest LP is. Common uniques 4, then those which are ever more rare reducing it steadily until a Ravenous Void for example gets a max of… ‘0’.
Tampers the expectations and causes people to naturally stop rather then burn themselves out by not realizing they go ‘beyond their limit’ so to say.
With core items it’s the same. I personally for example came over to Last Epoch at a time when Path of Exile’s end-game items became… questionable to obtain for a while, even with intensive investment. This had happened once before during the implementation of shaper/elder influenced items in a lower manner and then again with ‘Metamorph’ since it implemented the ‘conquerors of the Atlas’ which was a low in crafting… and… I’m a crafter.
So, I searched for alternatives where I can achieve my goal, and here we are, Last Epoch said ‘You need less time to get through the things we have then PoE!’
Great! Right?
Not so much since they make a bit less then 3/4th of the whole range of items… unobtainable, community wide. You can’t get top-tier items as the system would allow. Which was my gripe back then with PoE, making the top… 5% unavailable. Alleviated with ‘Harvest’ then made a bit worse again and finally brought back over time with adjustments to affixes and mechanics to allow that to actually happen reliably again with heavy effort (We’re talking several hundred hours purely dedicated on this one project).
So, when I sat down and actually decided to see just ‘how’ possible acquisition of top-ranged items in LE is, on the side of CoF… I realized I’ve got a gripe with the game since it ‘tricked me’ into thinking ‘Yes, you can achieve it’ with their marketing and the simplistic looking progression system for items. Reality is though… that’s not the case. Dampens my enjoyment greatly. But that’s a ‘me’ thing.
What isn’t a ‘me’ thing is that it happens overall without making such things clear. After finding out of uniques are rolled I’m not also very unhappy with unique acquisition rate since I’ve found out that EHG has seemingly no clue on how to balance drop-rates in the first place, which is a bad position I think to be in. They need to learn from several of their mistakes and I’m definitely keeping track of the game since it’s a ‘gem in the rough’ but it’s not quite fulfilling their promises so to say.
Yes, and you’ve said something nice there. ‘Hard to achieve’ for a dedicated invested long-term player.
‘Impossible to achieve’ is off-putting though.
Which… is fine for individual items. The problem arises if that persist on the whole spectrum of itemization.
The reason why people always talk about LP uniques is that it’s vastly harder to get a reliable top-base exalted item and creating something out of it.
And that’s the main issue there.
We have a single possible way to progress in the game, which is ‘drop this item’.
Nothing else.
Crafting is not ‘substantial’ like in other games, for example Torchlight Infinite and Path of Exile. You get the drop and then you go along and work on it. gradually, improving, risking from small amounts to huge amounts but not being able to ‘ruin’ it completely if you know what you’re doing after the initial steps.
Alternatives provide D3 and D4. They go the other route. Which is ‘we drop everything’. And… that’s fine! They don’t cater to me but I can see that the basic premise of their game isn’t meant to. What they provide works, it’s not a long-term concept to keep the same players in but it’s one where you’ll easily come back and enjoy it again after a while.
I don’t understand - despite trying - which people LE wants to cater to.
It seems… ‘confused’ and ‘unsure’ about it’s own position. I see a extremely easy start for the campaign, sudden spikes in difficulty with Lagon or from monoliths to empowered monoliths without any distinct preparation for it.
I see a simplistic crafting system that’s very solid to achieve quick progression… but turning into a nightmare for any sort of change before long rather then ‘enabling’ the player.
And I also see a steady mechanic to push forward theoretically ‘endlessly’ but also highly mechanical bosses that stand counter to the common gameplay.
And it’s not put into categories of ‘here’s the play-space for more casual people’ and ‘over there’s the play-space for the heavily invested people’. It seems to try to combine those, and that obviously can’t work well. It confuses both sides equally and makes it surprisingly hard to enjoy.
And I want to enjoy the game. I see the fluid combat, some really interesting mechanics, potential left and right… but untapped or badly executed rather often.
And with ‘badly executed’ I mean things like dungeons. They have a design blueprint on how to improve those with Path of Exile. They have a specific style which allows for unique mechanics… but there are none outside of the bosses.
Crafting falls into the same pitfall, solid start but not thought through.
Generally… ‘solid base systems thoughtlessly executed’ seems to be the overall situation of the game.
It’s an important discussion to have, because people have expectations that aren’t met. But what are their exact expectations? What do they really want? Not in platitudes, but some specific timeframes in mind? Mechanics that circumvent the RNG. Do they even want RNG?
To your points:
- Since good exalted bases are difficult to acquire in the late game - fade out the low-level bases in favour of high-level bases. That’s a change that I would make to the game. Then, maybe, allow players to add echo modifiers that reintroduce low-level drop chances if they so desire. Or introduce modifiers that increase the likelihood of a specific base to drop, for example Oracle Amulet.
- Yes, for some sub-par uniques, higher LP chances would be nice, as they fall flat otherwise. Doesn’t mean one has to remove almost impossible LP4 items entirely from the game. Instead, write a big sign: “Almost impossible means something. You who is reading this: learn to manage your expectations. Don’t plan with this item. Don’t chase it.”
- How would you manage that there is not that much bricking? Being generally a bit more generous with FP, so the likelihood you run out is lower? Allowing for the removal of specific affixes instead of random ones, maybe through new and rare runes? Protecting certain affixes from removal by player choice? Removing FP entirely? Recharging FP by some means?
It would be nice of the people writing those builds and guides that players try to follow, maybe, if they attach a warning sign. But it is totally in the responsibility of the player, yes.
IF you plan ahead (picking a build from a 3rd party site is planning ahead), then you rely on 3rd party information. So you also can use 3rd party information to inform yourself about drop tables. How you can do it? Maybe try to find out drop tables for the unique items you want, with the LP you would like.
ABomb’s 3LP bricks, for example, seem quite lofty. Or the OP’s chase after an Omnis, which is rare and needs certain conditions to drop.
But where do you draw the line? Because there will always be people that strive for more than they can realistically achieve. There might be someone with delusions that playing 10 hours a week entitles them to get item XYZ, which is one of the available chase items people realistically need to invest deeply for.
People need to learn to manage their expectations, even in video games. That’s a responsibility you can’t take from people.
I somewhat agree on the crafting part and how it is marketed, as their official store page says ‘deterministic’ upgrade mechanics… but there is so much RNG included that the deterministic part sounds like a joke. The “the next upgrade is always on the horizon” they claim is also true - but if you already stand on a mountain, the horizon is very far away. Relatively quickly, it becomes increasingly difficult to reach the horizon one more time. Though I think that it should be obvious to anyone playing a game with progression, that at some point, progression becomes increasingly more difficult. If one didn’t realize that before they started the game, well, it proves that even a ‘fun’ game can be a ‘learning environment’ 
LE’s crafting system, while top-tier items being extreme rare (as they should be, to be honest), is still better than the super random stuff PoE put me through. I haven’t tried to craft in PoE in ages, though, aside from some simple ‘add a modifier from your crafting bench’.
PoE limits crafting by currency (or league mechanics). LE mainly by FP. Since FP can’t be recharged, you can ultimately brick an item, while you can always farm more currency in PoE to try anew (corruption excluded). If there were more good bases to begin with, it wouldn’t be so bad, I guess.
Yes, that’s a ‘flattening of the exponential curve’ and a valid solution since it can be implemented with automation in mind.
That enforces EHG to adjust all the content along the way though to align with it.
Exactly what I’m asking for, a proper balance patch rather then a content patch. That should’ve been 1.0, which was a missed chance and will likely lead to returning to 0.9 levels of player engagement for the game. You only got ‘so many’ chances to gain traction, each of them is precious, one missed.
A 4 LP red ring is statistically impossible. Getting one would need everyone world-wide to treat the game as their full-time job for a duration which is longer then civilization exists.
I’m all for ‘almost impossible’ but I’m fairly much against ‘impossible’ things.
Exceptions for individual items apply, like the roll-ranges of an omni for example… but the acquisition of the base item which even needs extra work to ‘become something’ is a position I’ve decided for myself after long introspection and comparing it with other people is a baseline which needs to be fulfillable.
You can’t, crafting itself isn’t the problem, and LP slamming itself also isn’t the problem.
We need to get a step deeper into the core roots what causes that, I’ve said it before I’ll say it again ‘the core is rotten’, ‘the foundation is damaged’. Fix that aspect, then build on top. You can’t build a sturdy house without a solid foundation and a apple with a shiny exterior but a rotten core is still not enjoyable.
That means a full-scale re-work of drop-rates. A full on balance sweep for all builds. A full on adjustment for all content to align with the new drop-rates. And then we can start speaking about crafting or LP slamming because we can see what actually is going on.
That’s not what I’m talking about.
Sure, it’s part of the perception, but if you bring me in as a developer on the premise that it’ll be more casual then PoE… only for me to realize to ‘optimize’ a single character which takes me roughly 5-10k hours in PoE takes instead longer then the universe has existed already (literally… not a joke) then I feel kinda scammed, even if it’s definitely not the intention.
Yes, but they’re ‘in the grand scheme of the game’ not even at 15% of the fully provided possible scale of power.
How can you decide what your goal is when you have no comparison to what the actual top can be?
A informed decision needs a specific comparison to it. No comparison no informed decision.
You can’t, you can only give someone a perspective to work with. ‘This is the top, you’ll need x amount of time to reach the top!’ would be a good start.
Also one other point… progression needs to be steady. The steps don’t matter as much as it actually happening.
Nobody likes waiting 10% to the top of a mountain for a rockslide to happen so they have the rough edges to grasp onto and climb further. We don’t know when it happens that a rockslide comes, could be in an hour… could be in a month… but you need to be there at the second because after 10 minutes the wind erodes it into a totally flat surface again.
How do you plan with that?
Which is that we can only hope for a fantastic drop but not work towards one. Which is fine for a small sub-set of items to exist, the ‘lucky drops’. But when everything becomes a 'lucky drop* and you got no way to instead gradually work towards it the majority of people will not even attempt it. That mindset to ignore this aspect is extremely rare, extremely… extremely rare.
Yes, but a game has to provide the baseline for those expectations.
And this is - should other games of the genre exist - how is it compared to other games?
Harder? Easier?
Will my goals take longer or less long?
EHG says ‘less long then PoE’… but it’s not the case. You created your expectation by hearing that, come in and find out it’s not the case.
Are you still ‘motivated’ to do it?
Yes, and that’s outright false marketing, which gives them a major major minus in my eyes.
Shouldn’t be there.
‘Deterministic’ means I get the outcome I want. Which is not the case at all. PoE for example calls ‘getting a fire affix’ as deterministic… which… not really… but more at least.
In LE you raise tiers and everything else is pure RNG, that’s not deterministic.
Yes, absolutely! And people expect it, that’s fine.
Look at the topics though when people come in.
- At the brink to empowered monoliths. Those have either a skill/knowledge issue OR chose the wrong class which hampers them substantially. Some classes are really really unfriendly towards beginners and they can’t know that.
- LP Slamming. Which yes… because they can’t upgrades in the form of exalted items.
- Generally stuck, ‘can’t progress’. Which is often either a skill/knowledge issue (which can be fixed) but the majority is very close to the absolute max of acquisition nonetheless.
What’s our realistic max acquistion? T7 rare affix perfectly rolled. Anything beyond is a pipe-dream for MG.
We have 3 more affixes you can’t ‘max out’ and never in the game are you told or shown that that will be the case. You already need 1000+ hours for a single T7 rare on the right base with the right affixes, no talk about sealed or anything… in MG.
Yes, it’s random!
But if you understand it (which is a knowledge curve which is darn steep, extremely steep, hundreds of hours to learn if you dedicate yourself to it) everything becomes vastly easier.
So PoE allows you to progress through knowledge. Which is bad for someone not putting the effort in, is obscure… but it’s at least there.
I’m speaking since ages about a in-game help which tells you ‘this is the way to get your outcome, follow this road!’ which is a few algorithms and a check for the market situation. Craft of Exile for example is a great start for that but needs too much effort still to achieve, you can make it easier I guarantee.
In LE though… there is no path. None. It just doesn’t exist. It’s not obscured (which can be handled) but instead just is outright missing.
Nono… not ‘limits’… time-gates it.
LE limits.
A limit is a maximum you can achieve after all. LE cuts you off no matter the effort. PoE rewards for putting in effort. Directly related to your effort even.
‘I played 100 hours efficiently’ gives you 10 times the results then ‘I played 10 hours efficiently!’.
In LE you have a 2-3 min crafting process which doesn’t care about effort. All effort is limited to RNG drops.
In PoE you can also go ‘I got this special base and I want xyz on it! Let’s start!’ and you begin to ‘form’ your item.
You go and use alterations on it until you get your first rare modifier… then you go ahead and save that position if it’s really rare, guaranteed to not be lost. Then you regal and return to your save-point until it fails… until you get your result.
You got 2 absolutely perfect rolls already, 3 possible. ‘Suffices for now’, more then most will do anyway.
But there’s more! You then can enforce that those 2 aren’t changed, you can enforce a ‘type specific’ affix to happen. Top tier? Nah… that’s luck, but you can get something… and else you return to the regal state.
Should you get it you got 3 Suffixes or Prefixes… and that’s again… save! Next step…
You get the gist? You get a checklist with sometimes dozens of steps… but if you get to another checkpoint you’ve progressed permanently. You can’t use your item yet but it’s become closer to your goal.
That’s progress.
In LE you don’t have progress, you have a single chance and then you start from 0. Always.
I don’t know why you picked me as an example as I don’t have any investment into this thread but ok xD
But I want to touch on one statement you made:
The top end is not “dead space”.
The system is specifically made and balanced in a way. That it is item dependent. So each item itself has 2 factors Its base rarity and its LP chance.
I can reverse the question and say why should you arbitrary cut of certain items from having the chance to have 2, 3 or 4 LP.
In practice cutting off that top end would make no difference for the majority of cases. But it would also make the system a lot more arbitrary and not transparent. Deferantiating between different item catogires, some of which can have 4, some which can have 3, some which can have 2 etc would make the system needlelsy complicated.
I would simply argue that this is a player entitlement issue. Just because something is possible, people want it.
I really experienced a lot of people critizing the system and a large majority of them wanted items with a high LP value that even some of the most diehard players will never see.
So they simply setting their expectations too high.
I personally would argue that datamining and extracting a lot of infos from external sites is making this kind of situation worse, because people feel entitled to get and own certain items because “they think they are obtainable”.
Some context about me before I reply: I already played NetHack, Angband, Adom, etc. before Diablo 1 was out. And admittedly never successfully, i.e. I never reached the end of the game. I believe that qualifies me as casual 
However, I leve these games for whatever reason (by far not as much as Deus Ex, though), and being told “maybe this game is not for you” really is a slap in the face.
That being said and all from the perspective of a CoF player:
That’s totally the way to go. First of, the current monolith mechanics (memories, etc.) are completely depricated by MG and CoF. Replace them with mechanics which give the player significantly - not just a tiny RNG bit - more control over the kind of the loot, Especially for CoF. Replace the current IncreasedQuantity and IncreasedRarity what the CoF ranks are with something more meaningful. Remember the thread yesterday or two days ago where the OP was counting all special nodes of a timeline and it was like 7 unique rings. That is completely worthless compared to prophecies or MG.
Now this is specific for CoF: What I would like to see is a CoF rank which allows you to swap n XLP uniques of the same type for 1 (X+1)LP version of this unique. A Horadric hypercube. Admittedly, I am not good enough in statistics to assess all implications of this suggestion, but here are my thoughts: A) This will result in players having 4LP common uniques in no time. And I say “So what?” Because these uniques are usually only worth it with 3LP or higher. Otherwise a decient Exalted would be better in the first place. So this would only make the game more interesting and diverse. B) I would not allow 0LP to be combined to 1LP to block the very rare uniques from being trivialized. I have never seen anything really rare so far in my LE carreer, so should that ever happen mulitple times then I would not able to upgrade this to something way more rare.
But Aganin, Not sure whehter that would stand the scrutinization of @Kulze.
- We need to have solved the issue of subtype and for the reminder I assume that happened.
- As @Kulze pointed out in another post: T6 and T7 are too powerful. Right now the progression is actually: 1 2 3 4 5 7 10. So we have no control over the most desired tiers but instead depend on them to drop. Since Yesterday for example my topmost filter rule looks for any glove with melee leech. And I found so far Z E R O. Not a single item. Not a meager T1. I would like to craft it onto a glove, I have the shards. But I really wold like a T6, better a T7 because that would free 10 passive points I currently have in VK for the leech. So either give us the means to somehow craft T6/T7 onto items (Make it a mechanic, an adventure, it does not have to be something common, but could be something spacial.) or tune T6 and T7 down to what the numbers implicate 6 and 7 not 7 and 10.
- Right now my crafting approach is like this: Chaos Glyph the undesired affixes away. If such an affix reaches T5 check wheter a rune of removal would still make sense. If not the item is already bricked. If the rune of removal did remove a desired affix or if not enough FP is left then item is bricked as well. And this covers already probably 95% of my attempts. Which is why high level crafting just sucks and is not fun. So we do not even have to talk about the runes and glyphs which work e.g. on the implicits or within a tier because I never get to the point where I could use them. Not sure how to adress this though. Perhaps: Make the glypth of chaos a rune an allow us to use it together with a glyph of hope. Also make the FG-removal-range smaller.
Because most people on this forum know you.
Totally and rightfully so
Agreed! But don’t you think that after 800 hours I would deservie a 3LP Siphoon of Anguish? I have a number of 2LP but do not feel that for my Paladin they would be better than a decent Exalted. If I had a VK, than perhaps. But even than I was not too sure whether it would be worth the hassle of the dungeon and then witnessing it potentially being bricked!
So yes, it is a 3LP, but still nothing to be overly excited about. And this is what I (actually I stole the term from @Kulze) refer to as dead design space.
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Agreed, they lost all inherent value in 1.0
Yeah, but that’s generally needed.
CoF has the same issues as MG, just in different fields.
CoF still struggles with targeting the right stuff.
MG still struggles with getting valuable items overall.
In one you’re left with 500 useless T7+T6 items or even 2 T7 items… in the other you don’t even encounter them.
Darned if you do, darned if you don’t basically. The other side always seems more green… but in that case it actually is… but not for the stuff you want 
I don’t know a pure fix for that yet but there needs to be a overall change in some direction, if I find a mechanic I’ll once more present it in one of the conversations.
I mean… it’s a very good starting point, things to work out but overall ‘doable’.
Just needs the rate behind it adjusted and accounting for fringe-cases and we got ‘a system’ at least.
The biggest downside of the game is that it ‘stops progression’ completely for every possible venue after a while after all, be it LP or be it exalted items.
But… after reading into the post and looking at the underlying mechanic I think I have a deterministic thing in mind which can work:
So… we have LP items. Unique items are 99% worthless after the initial state where you got your items, starting with 2 LP they’re either near (or even fully) non-existent for rare ones or still worthless for common ones.
We already have a ‘conversion rate’ for LP in-built. You need ‘x’ 0 LP to get a 1LP.
Soooo… make a conversion mechanic simply! A separate overlay for uniques only, like the forge.
If I need 10 LP 0 to drop a LP 1… let me put in - gradually - LP 0 items, and when the threshold is met… create a 1 LP of this unique!
Gradual progression at least and not game-breaking. You still need to create a specific amount of uniques after all.
Decrease overall drop-rate of LP by 50%, add this, I think the issue should be solved.
I can think of a few problems but no major ones.
I’m for a ‘special’ crafting mechanic, more mechanics for crafting to create a more diverse system is good. If you have variety each individual system to acquire something can have faults. It only is an issue when there’s ‘no route’ to achieve your goal.
Exactly that.
I have used 7 of those on good exalted items to date.
7.
I’ve crafted over 1500 ‘good’ exalted bases to date. Which means 7 had FP leftover after the last craft which could be counted as a ‘success’ and allowed the risk to even use the next one.
Edit:
Mind you, out of those 1500 maybe 20 survived
There is no answer to that question.
Because it really doesn’t say much. Did you really solely farm Siphon’s for that time of playing? Did nothing else?
There are a lot of other factors as well that would make that same time spent more or less effective, so it doesn’t really have any value.
If you maximized all your efforts and used all the game systems to your advantage, yes absolutely that would be more than enough tiem spent to get 3LP Siphon.
Throwing around these “X number of time should reward you with Y type of item” is very hard to discuss, because there are usually so many external factors.
There is!
A good developer has it actually.
‘Should a player get a 3 LP Siphon of Anguish by target farming for it with method ‘x’ after 800 hours… with a 50% chance?’ is a yes/no answer for a dev.
Either they balance it for it or not.
If their answer is ‘I don’t know’ then they screwed up, because that’s how balancing works.
Yeah, I was kidding. I do not care about that specific item that much. And that’s the thing: No, I did not farm it, no, I did not venture into the farthest frontiers of the timeline. No, I did not setup my timeline following ancient prophecies. I might though if I knew if would be worth it. Put in that righteous, honest work, not that a lowly casual might just get an unbelievable 3LP unique without having put in proper work. God forbid!
But all the trouble for an item which is quite nice, but then also not that nice… only to get two 0LP and one 1LP?
No thanks! Keep your 3LP!
Even a dev can’t and shouldn’t give a clear yes or no answer to this kind of questions.
Balancing is not black and white, right or wrong. Its subjective for each and everyone.
There are ways and methods of farming these kinds of items, that should never even get these kind of items, because they don’t deserve them.
I would say a dev should aim for some upper and lower boundaries (like X hours - Y hours of farming that item) and if you are within those boundaries you should get such an item, even if your methods are very poor.
But balancing for such high tier items should really be done with at least 70/80% efficiency of use of game system in mind.
We are not talking about some basic starter items here, we are talking about top-end items that are not required to do anything other than boosting your character power more to tackle higher infiinite scaling parts of the game.
If you think your build requires such and items there are are very likely 10 other ways of improving your character that are easier to obtain.
Nope
Factually wrong.
If we had that then there wouldn’t be intricate systems behind that.
PoE balances related to specific items. ‘You see a headhunter in content ‘x’ with character ‘y’ every ‘z’ timeframe’ is the equation. From there all other uniques are adjusted accordingly.
A good system does exactly that, having a point to work from and then handle things. If something isn’t feeling ‘right’ then you know where to turn the dial to make it feel better… or where to implement another dial which you’ve not realized exists.
Having no such system is the same as blindly flailing in the dark in hopes to find your way. You could… you could not… who knows? It’s all based on luck!
And do you know what luck is? Luck is when you get something right despite not having knowledge of all the parameters. Someone who repeatedly gets it right has found a important parameter which he stays at that others don’t. Which is why others fail and that person doesn’t.
Holds true for every single thing in life.
Boundaries are also fine, but you have to make 100% sure that everything stays within the boundaries. So… your omnis should drop ever 15-25 times, not majorly more or less. You should need between 150-200 hours, not 50 and not 600.
That’s a boundary.
Is every value in the right boundary? No? Adjust the system!
It’s a universal rule in design which has to be upheld, you do something within the framework of where it can function in.
Individual elements function in different parameters depending on others… but for each ‘state’ there’s a potential ‘optimum’ for any given time, it’s just too complex to fully understand everything… so we move in a area and not with precision.
No its not factually wrong.
You just disagree
I was refering to the @R1ng0’s example and that is too much of a generic statement with no context.
Everything else what you described is already way to specific and precise.
For both the “boundary example” and the “You See Item X in Content Y within Timeframe Z” there will always be outliers. There will be the lucky players and there will be the unlucky players.
Unless you enforce some failsafes, which would be whole other discussion on its own already.