He doesn’t understand how damage is calculated (since he can’t do it in his head it’s too difficult & therefore shouldn’t exist), so he doesn’t understand that the damage from skills comes from the weapon damage & any other flat added damage.
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That’s because you are considering the average damage increase but in combat it is a different case. Let’s say you attack an enemy, the enemy would die in one hit if it was a crit but it was a non-crit meaning all your investment into crit chance and multi was useless for that hit. Now the enemy gets to hit you before your second attack making you take damage which wouldn’t have happened if you crit the first attack. Even worse if this attack is a oneshot attack like the Covenant Dominion’s fire blast or the Profane flesh necrotic rock throw which do insanely high damage at high corruption.
Particularly for melee builds hitting crit cap is important to ensure you are killing/stunning mobs before they can move out of your range. Heck I swapped a Carcinization of momentum which gives me 20% inc movespeed for a regular crit ring just to push me from 97% to 100%+ crit chance on my melee Beastmaster.
Now look at it in practice, pretty much any endgame hit based build I see being showcased has 100% crit chance or very close. No setup goes for 50-60% crit chance and says this is fine. Just considering the base 200% multiplier, a build A with 50% crit chance has average 100% more damage but a build B with 100% crit chance has 200% more damage. Meaning build A is missing at minimum 100% more damage why would you play that?
Currently, if you are doing hit based damage investing in crit is more of a mandate than a choice if you want to deal optimal damage. Providing alternative ways to scale non-crit hit damage will help setups that lack easy access to crit (eg: Sentinels) while not power creeping already strong Crit/ DoT builds.
This will increase the diversity in builds and promote the use of non-crit affixes and different basetypes in hit builds. For example, the Katana is almost always used in 1h sword builds due to its crit implicit over the Dawn blade which has 16 more flat damage. If the mandatory base crit prefix is not required on weapons, maybe other prefixes such as % inc damage or additional flat damage prefixes shall be used.
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Read my above post. I know multishot can clear 1000 corruption if you use a specific set of win conditions.
My post is about using multishot to stack critical which is what the post is about. Critical multishot with giant slayer makes your entire ability do 6 damage (-80% of 30 =6). Even if you increase it to 14 (6*14 = 84 -80%= 17)
The best way to use multishot is with flurry being turned into a channel with it activating multishot and multishot double shot to stack bleeds with dark arrow.
This is not what the op is talking about. 17 damage for a ability is trash. Even if you find a way to scale it with more damage per arrow.
I did.
Really? Did you try it yourself? Can you tell me the win conditions?
What do you want to tell me with this? I don’t understand your point. Are you trying to say that a self cast hit/crit multishot build is not viable or lacks dmg? I’m doing 1mio crits on a dummy with a single multishot cast and it can perma stun 300-500 corruption monolith bosses.
Absolutely not. I really don’t wanna be a dick and tell people how they should play. But i like to test things and i test alot of stuff for rogue, especially marksman. If you like channel flurry better, thats absolutely fine. But i can tell you that its not better since multishot lost alot of important dmg multipliers (don’t confuse that with multiplayer - that has something to do with coop) and mechanics with the recent nerf to channel flurry. And ontop of that, with channel flurry you have to stand still, which makes you more vulnerable to incoming attacks.
I know, that’s why i just replied to your comment about multishot that it’s not a meme build. It’s actually a strong endgame competitor for marksman.
I think i have to agree with Llama that you might not know how dmg scaling works.
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There is. Aside from crit, we have:
- % Increased damage
- % More damage
- % Penetration
- Armor Shred
- Resistance Shred
- Speed
- Doing more hits
Lets have an example.
Let’s say if you hit, you deal 1000 damage. So doing 100 hits means 100 x 1000 damage = 100 000 damage dealt, right?
Now lets apply 5% chance to deal 200% damage. That means, on average, 95 hits are normal hits, so 95 x 1000. And 5 hits become crits, so 5 x 2000. 95 000 + 10 000 gives a total of 105 000 damage.
Now lets apply Singularity at it’s lowest roll. 8% more hit damage for all your hits. So all 100 hits now do 8% more damage, or 1,08 x 1000 = 1080 damage, so 100 x 1080 gives a total of 108 000 damage.
As you can see, the lowest roll of Singularity is better, and your feelings were lying to you. Math won’t lie 
But like others already told you, crit is real easy to get. Your whole premise that you want to go non-crit because crit is too hard to get outside of smite and melee is kinda silly. Even if you don’t reach 100% crit chance, and even if your crit multiplier stays at 200%, you still get benefits from going for crit.
Of course they do.
There are even builds who go for 5% crit chance and say this is fine. You’ve been living under a rock it seems. Check out some of the build videos on LE Tools man.
Maybe because I decided to go for a bit more tanky build, so maybe I cannot get to 100% crit chance, but at least I can survive a Covenant Dominion’s fire blast 
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I’m not really saying there is not a lot of sources of %crit in the game, I’m saying they are not very well spread, in some cases like mage you’ll get a lot without almost any investment and in some cases you’ll need 2~3 legendary items to get to 80% crit, and if you need any important affix for your build in these legendaries it becomes even more of a hassle.
And adding to this i think it would be too hard of a task for the devs to check if every skill and subskill has enough ways to get %flat crit. I also think building every character the same way, even thought its only a part of your dmg, is boring. So my suggestion is adding a easier and more accessible way to build your dmg as a counterpoint to crit, that way if you feel like you’ll need to invest too much just to cap your crit chance you may opt to build your character in an alternative way.
I doubt if thats enough and how much would you need to make your dmg feel good.
You also get everything youre listing here in builds where you dont have to care much about building crit, there is also a limit to how much you can scale all those things. Things like increased dmg, penetration and armour shred have diminishing returns and you’ll usually want crit to add another multiplier. For skills that have a cd getting more attack speed dont make any difference and getting more hits is impossible, you could get CDR but that dont go in the same places where you get crit or attack speed, so its not like youre choosing one or the other.
I’m aware singularity is better than crit in some very specific cases, but for me thats the same as saying acid flask is a good leveling skill in very specific cases (maybe when you have just unlocked it in your first ever rogue playthrough lol), but for me it would be strange if i ever choose to use it instead of trying to get one or two crit related affixes.
And just to be clear, i’m complaning about instances where is a hassle to cap or almost cap your crit chance not instances where you need to invest just enough for singularity to be matematically worse.
The “outside of smite or melee” is just an example very specific to sentinel that i gave to elucidate my point of how in some cases is very easy to get %crit, but i’m well aware that you can get crit for example in the upper half of FG or through uniques. But for smite you can get 10% flat crit in its skill tree, and for most melee builds you can just get a %flat melee crit on your weapon.
But lets say youre trying to cap crit for the flame burst skill on Holy aura, or healing hands, or divine flare on sigils tree, or maybe youre trying to go for crit abyssal echoes and devouring orb. In all these you can get crit chance through gear, but if you ever played a sentinel you’ll know you will feel squish asf by not using a shield, not using red rings, not using all the great helmet implicits or uniques you have at your disposal, and i doubt you’ll do more dmg than a smite build with a shield, using two red rings with a double health + vit Leonine greathealm.
I’m here just to ask for a way to catch up to those builds that have it easier in this specific instance. An alternative way to build my character if i feel its not worth it to abdicate other things like defenses or attributes on my gear. And i dont really want " these builds are just worse builds" in response when the gap between them are pretty big, enough to feel bad when you play both, and its not like every class in the game is blooming with overwhelming amounts of great builds. The game is also not in a state where you can play the same build forever and you will have enough content to feel good about it.
Just because a bunch of people play at 200 corruption with legendaries in everysingle slot possible, and say the build is good dosent mean it is good. I really like LE tools but most builds there are bad and i’m not trying to dish anyone, its just that a lot of people dont know how to make good builds on LE yet, you constantly see builds where people do things like build bleed and armour shred at the same time.
And to be clear you play the game wherever way you want, but just because you’re okay dealing zdps in corruption over 300, or play squish asf builds dying every other monolith, or playing just the meta builds, dosent mean i want to play that way. Thats why i’m not asking for ehg to nerf all these builds (some of them are not even that good), i’m asking for them to give us a alternative if we want to build characters another way.
Say you have 100 melee damage and 100 physical melee damage, Sentinel is basically a warrior and these are warrior specific base flat damages. So whatever you add or multiply with it will be +1(whatever added #) to or x100(more whatever #) and then % they can be increased by.
So I find most of the modification coming from passives and skills built right in, I always go for the more damage skill nodes first, then physical damage, then increased, then attack speed, bleed, penetrations and shred.
so melee 100 can be multiplied in the skill tree like with Rive, Rive has a ton of more damage and hits 3 times with the 3rd strike even being double damage. It also has a very nice crit tree you could also utilize for even more damage, so pile on skill + items to really drive it to max. Items like Fighting Chance, shattered chains, and Titan heart really pile on increased Melee damage.
Your passives have a lot of increased damage as well as added Physical damage.
You really start to see some major gains around 300% increased damage and or Physical Damage, especially pushing 300 corr, mobs are melting. 600-700% is where a lot of players can sit and push 600-700 corr easily.
Some 2 handed weapons can easily have affixes with 300% increased damage, so nailing one of those on a slam with attack speed or added melee damage is always great and helps you get to the 600% region.
I think rive, judgment and Erasing strike are probably the melee skills in sentinel that have the most multipliers in its skill tree. That said, i dont think its better to play without investing into crit in any of those, i’m not even sure if it would be good enough if you decided to invest into something else, you would probably need really good items and maybe give up some tankiness to be as good as a normal crit build, that in a melee sentinel build that are usually pretty squishy in high corruption.
And here we are talking about 3 of the best melee skills for sentinel, what about vengence or multistrike that dont even get flat crit as easly neither get that many good more dmg nodes?
I never really thought about getting bleed, in a crit build, maybe its good enough when you already have a lot of increase/more dmg that would also affect it? Usually i would say its not a great idea to go both but maybe. That said, i think it would be better to get armour shred, frailty, slow, chill and other ailments that would help with dmg and survivability.
I also think rive will do at least some dmg wherever way you try to build it 
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It can work in some specific cases. I am doing a harvest warlock, deals physical damage, and the main damage comes from bleed. But I am using poison, frost, blind, ignite, and rot.
I was getting close to 400 stacks of bleed on the bosses. I would drop blood fissure on boss, then spam it with harvest and aura of decay. The damage would kill corruption 200 bosses in about 40s (not counting ward). Still pushing the corruption on it slowly.
The build solos Lagon phases in about 20s on 175 for now. Still testing
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Yeah Rive will pretty much do more damage. I know with multistrike I focus on smite and lightning conversion to get my damage with melee healing hands lightning and lunge smite.
Vengeance for me is pretty much a damage reduction melee attack and void essence buff and that’s it.
I usually don’t focus on ignite or bleed unless I get a lot of attack speed, or soemthing that helps with stacking shreds like Void Cleave or Abyssal Decay.
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I don’t understand the premise and i certainly for agree with it.
5% of 200% is 10% and that doesn’t apply toany dot damage. Singularity is 20% to all dmg for one idol slot, so thats double the value of your inherent crit bonus, plus it affects dots.
Building “increased crit” on gear is a waste if you are not building additional base flat crit from skills, weapons (and rings i think)? And those implicits and prefixes that can give you additional base crit can instead give you additional flat base damage (either melee flat dmg of a type, or flat spell dmg) That flat damage is huge once your % dmg bonuses get big, and it also scales dots.
The only efficient crit ive used is when skills allow you to get more base crit (such as sorc int->base crit conversion). Or when skills give you monster increased crit bonuses, make it worthwhile to forgo more flat dmg for more base crit.
And when going for crit, one has to be careful not to end up with too much dot dmg that isnt scaling with the crit.
In the end, the most effective way to get more damage is to use sources of double dipping. My BM earthquake was getting 100k dps at level 82 with no crit gear and piss poor gear, because there are insane double dipping opportunities.
Just weapons for flat crit & just melee crit. Rings have % increased crit.
Flat damage doesn’t scale DoTs, only the relevant skills (melee, bow, throwing, spell or melee).
There aren’t any sources that double dip (like how in PoE % fire damage used to scale the hit that caused the ignite then the ignite aswell), though I suspect you’re talking about doing fire hit damage and ignite, but that’s not double dipping (see my example re how DoTs used to work in PoE).
There are plenty of easy ways to scale non-crit damage. Vengeance as an example has idols that scale damage and unique mace for more damage against bosses. It has build in shred and three different more damage in the tree. With the items focused on vengeance levels it’s possible to get all of the nodes. With end-game purples you don’t really need any legendries but if you get them it is just winning more. With only two unique items at most and singularity end game is truly doable. Is it really that hard to scale? Or is it a matter of speed?
I would really like to have a way to scale non Crit Hits, but for me its about Flavour.
If you plan on doing Hit Dmg , getting some Crit feels mandatory because its such a good scaling factor. I really like Singularity, but it’s “Flat”. By “Flat” I mean not really exciting and also doesnt ask you to build a stat to scale your character. If we had something like Disable Crit but you get X% More Hit Dmg per … I dont know Stun Chance (I mean why not) that would feel a lot better imo.
Edit: Fixed a few typos
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There’s generic flat crit on daggers, and on Phantom Grip.
I believe you meant that flat damage doesn’t scale ailments. It does scale some DoT attacks like Disintegrate or Judgement’s Consecrated Ground.
Correct me if I’m wrong here, but we do have instances of double dipping 
For example, Void Cleave converted to Fire has a node after the conversion that adds scaling from physical. So, it double dips from any source of % increased damage and % increased melee damage, because that adds both increased Physical and increasd Fire.
That’s the thing - you don’t.
Majority of builds needs to pick between attack speed, flat damage, flat melee crit, % increased damage, all of these are prefix slots. Suffix slots are also contested, for example you don’t usually run 4LP weapons, so you sacrifice suffix slots where % Pen would be. God forbid you perhaps want an ailment, stun chance or minion stats 
Well, I’m not quite sure why did you use that silly example to paint Singularity as a bad thing.
You’re literally complaining about instances where you’re going for crit cap, but somehow your Singularity comparison completely ignores those specific gear bases, specific unique items and multiple prefixes that you are sacrificing for said crit cap. Singularity doesn’t sacrifice any of that.
Smite crit has a tradeoff of -25% cast speed.
Flat melee crit on weapon is a tradeoff with either flat damage bonus, % damage bonus or % attack speed, those are the three most common ones.
So all of these are spells. There’s exactly one support for spell crit in Sentinel, that is the 200% increased spell crit in Paladin. Spells are the hardest to cap for Sentinel, right?
So I’m gonna use two items:
https://www.lastepochtools.com/planner/BEY1ZL7B
2 item bases, 2 crit affixes, 10 points in Paladin, 98% spell crit chance. Big deal.
I have three Sentinels, none of them wear shields. They definitely aren’t squishy
I’m not sure why are you comparing damage of shieldless smiter VS a shield-wearing smiter, but obviously shieldless has better damage.
Are we even playing the same game? 
Let me fix that for you: The game doesn’t have content yet.
It has nothing to do with what build you’re playing.
It seems you’ve also been living under a rock, so you’re full of false assumptions.
Smite is one of your examples of a skill that has the crit passive, so let me hit you with a Smiter build from Aaron that uses said crit passive, but isn’t crit capped and isn’t decked in legendaries, but still clears above 300c:
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All of which scale crit damage as well as non-crits.
Yeah, I’d forgotten about Phantom Grip & was mainly thinking about affixes as that’s what the post i was replying to was talking about.
Yup, any skill that has the DoT tag would scale with flat damage.
Yes & no. That is probably the only node in the game that applies % modifiers from one element to another (& I’ve never used Void Cleave so was unaware of it), but even then, I wouldn’t call it double dipping as the % modifiers are applied after any conversion happens, so it’s not like you’d get base phys increased by % phys, then converted to fire then modified ny the % phys modifiers again due to that node. Even more generic modifiers like % melee only ever get applied once.
What i’m saying is not that you need to get 4 prefixes in the same item, just that you can get attack/cast speed, flat dmg and increased dmg for both crit and non crit builds, so for hit builds if you already have enough crit from other sources, not needing to get added % melee crit or increased crit/spell crit as a prefexis on your weapon is a huge advantege over builds that need that crit. And if you decide to not get crit you are just losing on a massive 200% multiplier that the build that has access to crit will have.
I’m not trying to paint singularity as bad item, it IS a bad item. As i said it accomplishes nothing, the only reason to use it later in the game is because youre too lazy to build crit. You dont even need to cap crit for it to be better, 2 T5 increased crit affixes is statistically the same thing as a max roll singularity (although i dont really like to compare it like that).
Singularity just straight up sacrifice a huge multiplier you could otherwise scale for just half the dmg some really common low level uniques can give you. Youre basically giving up a portion of your character build progression for only 20% more dmg, the number itself is bad but losing the opportunity to scale your dmg for only that much in return is even worse.
Just to be clear, i wrote crit cap, but i think in most cases aroun 80~95% is more than enough crit chance. It would still be a massive multiplier even if not 100%, the problem is that in some ocasions even that is hard to get. But there are still more cases where is better to try to achieve 100% crit chance than to settle for a max roll singularity, i would never say that going for 100% crit chance is for “specific cases”.
In my opinion is a lot easier to overcome losing attack/cast speed/one or two increased dmg affixes than it is to overcome not having easy access to flat crit. At one side you can craft these affixes in other slots like gloves, amulets and relics, and at the other side you’ll need 2~3 uniques to overcome, its easier than ever to get legendaries but is not to the point to be negligible.
Smite in specific is even easier to overcome, because in most builds smite is being procced and not directly casted.
There are also skills that dont really get that downside like Gathering Storm, Runic Invocation, Shadow Daggers and even Rive.
So if you want to play spell sentinel you are obligated to use a dagger and a catalyst. I can totally see the Sentinel Fantasy right there.
Also, if you use a dagger you lose the 30% increased attack speed in the upper half of sentinel passive tree, which in my opinion is at least non neglegible in a lot of cases (its the same as a max roll T7 affix on a pair of gloves). And shields is the hole premise of paladin, you also lose some passives in FG and Sentinel tree’s. I would’nt say is mandatory because of that, but Sentinel is the squishiest class there is in the endgame, specially on high corruption (just watch this video if you want some information as to why that is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxW6YOtNMO4) and I would argue that losing one of its best layers of defense is pretty bad for any build.
Maybe not pushing the same ammount of difficulty or not playing for the same ammount of time.
Of course it does, if you can easly rush through the endgame and quickly kill the only pinnacle boss we have right now, you lose a lot of the incentive you would otherwise have to keep optimising your gear for example.
I’m well aware the game will have more content in the future, but i’m talking about right now. On top of that we are since july 9 on patch 1.1, and although we got a reset recently there was not that many big changes (like a completly new way to scale your build for dmg) and we are expecting to not get anything new until at least february.
I like Aaron, but this build is not that tanky and the dmg is just good, but nothing spectacular, just put his stats on this EHP Calculator, or try putting a smilar build against Aberroth, it might even struggle against T4 julra or the habbingers. That said i dont even think this build is even completed, that are still a ton of stuff you could do to improve it, a bunch of new uniques that would go well with if, that shield is one of the worst unique shields we have at the moment. And everything he played in the video was at corruption 430 whitch to be honest is more than i thought he would be able to push with his gear, but its not that high.
If youre ok playing in these circumstances, you do you, have fun playing the game wherever way you want, i’m not talking against that. Thats just not what i’m talking about.