I dont see how the age of the game matters when its not even better than Diablo 2 which is way older.
When Diablo 3 came out i switched to it, and it definitely overall better for me then Diablo 2.
thou those games are very different. Diablo 2 is old graphics and doesn’t have endgame except PVP
You are in the vast minority then. Every single poll on the internet has diablo 2 at the top and diablo 3 at the bottom when its about what aRPGs are best.
I’m comfortable in that minority as well.
I wouldn’t go that far…
Topic is getting a bit off rails though, lol. They did make a minor change to this already (I think), or at least talked about it.
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Just look at the PoE. Outside of some gimmicky builds, nothing like “support” build exists. I believe it will be same here. I know many players will have this wild idea, that ARPGs will work like MMORPGs, where you have tank, support builds and damage dealers, but in fact, parties will work best, when everyone is great damage dealer. So your Solo Pushing build will do just fine in multiplayer scenario.
In D3, there were few cases, when some groups pushed really far thanks to “support” builds, but it was more about breaking the game by insane synergies, which were never intended to work this way.
You could argue “But I want player support paladin build in a group” - and while this is valid request, support builds are not mandatory and they really can’t build game around every wish.
If you want have dual spec, talk about this. Or talk about how many specs you want to save and push this idea if you want, but don’t try to make it looks mandatory because “we need solo builds, support builds, group builds etc.” because we really don’t.
And while I am not dev, if you read some of their latest posts, it’s pretty clear they really don’t want players to have multiple builds per character, nor they want some free respecing quickly so you can jump from on build to another in a second based on situation.
@EHG_Dodo1 i could make the same argument for Lightning, Cold and Fire Sorcerer. I currently have a totally glass cannon Lightning build @ L92 and would like to have the other 2 builds as well. My personal choice to say respec cost too much and levelling alt chars is stupid idea (imagine having to have 60 chars for 4 builds per mastery … thats insane).
The real point i want to make is it would be nice for the Devs to come out and clearly explain their philosophy on multiple builds per mastery … and btw i am VERY in favour of mastery being fixed.
As a Paragon 6,000+ D3 player i do know a bit about how the endgame in D3 works. A support Barb in D3 does 2 things 1) damage reduction with IP and 2) pulling with Stomp. Those skills are not “breaking the game by insane synergies”. There are insane synergies for certain DPS builds such as was the case with Starpact Wizard but support builds are not insane in D3.
I really dont mind if there are or are not support builds in final LE endgame its just that there will always be the need for multiple builds per mastery (solo versus group ; push versus speed ; glass cannon versus balanced). Just want to know the Devs philosophy / approach to this topic.
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I have yet to meet someone, who is playing ARPGs this way. ARPG character just retire and player will move to another character. I think this is the case to first create artificial problem to push my agenda. My opinion
But none of these builds will allow you to get like 10 GR higher than for example just group of some solid “A” damage dealing builds. If someone want to play this way, of course, it’s their choice, but again, it’s not mandatory.
And we are back at the beginning. Respec system already exists in LE so again, you don’t need to have 2 - 3 active builds per character, you really don’t, you may want to, but no mastery “needs” multiple builds. Again, you are saying it like it is important to have several active builds for different scenarios, which is just not true. It may be important to you, I get that, but you can play game perfectly fine with just one build and still be useful in most, if not every, scenario.
Ahh, well, as long as it was a poll on the internet that said something, that has to be true! There’s absolutely no way they could be gamed (though I do also agree that overall D2 was “better” than D3, apart from the graphics).
Apart from the support builds (random support 1, random support 2, too lazy to look for more)…
Support builds are probably always going to be a minority in an aRPG, as compared to an MMO, but that doesn’t mean you can’t have them. The Paladin feels like it has quite a bit of support built in.
Ah yes, I’d forgotten about D3’s “zDPS” support builds.
Are you sure about that, maybe a post from a CM saying they never intended support builds to be a thing?
I feel the same about minion builds, and if they were never a thing the devs would have more resources to do other stuff (like tooltip DPS) & 150k ward builds wouldn’t be a thing.
You don’t. I don’t need minion builds.
My main point is here that you don’t need support build to be successful. In most cases, even in PoE case, some insane damage dealing builds will always make better party than trying to play some form of trinity system.
As I said, who wants to play support build, let them and that’s fantastic they enjoy it, just don’t try to make it the reason, why multi spec is “needed”. Even in PoE players will create dedicated support build characters.
Yes, they actually said that. They said if some support build emerges and it wont break the game, they wont nerf it, however, when it allows to push further than damage builds, they will nerf it.
Noone needs. People want many different thing, but noone “needs” to have “solo build, group build, support build” etc.
You may want that, but again, some people want design game around fact, that “they don’t have enough time to relevel character”. Does it means devs need to make leveling instant? Of course not.
I know you don’t need them, but some people enjoy playing a support build. Just like some (very strange) people enjoy playing minion builds.
I’m not sure whether that would be the case in LE though. Some builds have more control than others & could pair up well with the more glass cannon builds (like Void Knights). It’ll be interesting to see how it pans out when MP is implemented. I also never mentioned having the “glorious” trinity… But we’ll have to see.
This is true.
IMO, that sounds a bit bonkers (a link would be awesome, but I’m not saying it didn’t happen). Support builds would clearly have to be balanced so that they aren’t, er, unbalanced. So, say, the best DPS + a support didn’t get hundreds of waves ahead of 2x the best DPS builds.
This idea of full support vs. full dps for an arpg is mostly asinine, as the builds are not the source of that particular issue. Gameplay overall; enemy difficulty and AI, enemy skills, player power creep, player skills, etc - those are the things that can sway players to build one way or another, including having multiple builds for multiple situations.
ie; if mmorpg’s where not designed with the trinity system in mind, players would not build around the trinity. See guild wars and it’s sequel.
Players without enough time to level/re-level multiple specs should consider this when deciding what to play, imo, but that doesn’t mean the devs should disregard quality of life entirely.
Personally, if I want a character specialized in something else, I build another character. Eventually creating a stable of characters that each have their own personality through their build. This is most likely what the devs intend as well as it fits with their class identity theme. One character from a class should not be able to do everything, or quickly respec to anything, from that class.
I think re-leveling the skill when you respec a node fits into the mythos of your character’s journey. Makes it more real, gives it a permanence that would otherwise not be there. I think of it as my character forcebly training to learn how to perform the action differently. It’s a sort of emergent story in it’s own right, and helps you become attached to your character.
It comes down to character/class identity within the confines of the enforced mythos of the game world through it’s systems and lore. If gameplay enforces combat situations where support is necessary, players will adapt to this with their builds. As multiplayer is not yet implemented, it’s hard to say one way or the other how the game will influence player builds in that environment.
How do we know that the devs don’t have something else in mind besides simply multiplying enemy stats in multiplayer?
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I will try to find it but what they basically said is “diablo is all about killing demons, support builds are fine, however when support builds are too powerful, players may feel they need to play support characters and this is not what is Diablo about” … Not sure how truth this was, but they also said that balancing encounters around potential support builds, is difficult - so this may be closer to the truth.
Overall great post and I have nothing meaningful to add, but i want touch this point. As far as I know, whole LE has to be playable both in single player and multiplayer scenario but game is just not build around tank/heal/dps. You touched it already early in your post, but AI just does not work this way so I don’t believe they will branch it just for the sake of multiplayer, while keeping single player experience how it is.
In general, support builds in ARPGs are mandatory only if they are broken. Support build have to substitute damage of one player in some way and in game. where your whole point is to kill monsters, this has to be very strong - and in this case, we are talking about either overpowered build or overtuned boss fight. Support builds exists, but these don’t break the game and are on par with other builds - so situation, where you NEED support character just does not exists (and if yes, it means that support build is overpowered and boss fight is overtuned for dps only bulds).
It’s actually quite hard to design encounters, where both dps only and support build group are viable so I am pretty sure, they will avoid it for all cost, and when situation, where you need support character in group emerges, they will try to fix it.
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Many people seem to think that they have to have any build of any mastery of any character. And if this is not achievable as a casual player with 2h playtime per day they come to the forum and complain about harsh respec and bad game mechanics.
I am also of the opinion that the current respec system is not encouraging experimenting early game.
But:
There is no ARPG law or rule set for proper development that sais that I, as the player, have to have tested all skillnodes of all skills my mastery offers when I am through the story. It’s totally fine. This means further content and replayability.
So there’s a cool skill I did not try? I want to build around it and see if it works? I respec. Oh wait, I like the actual build because it’s a lot if fun. So I relevel a new char.
Wait! I can’t decide which character to play, because they are all fun! Congratulations! The game is a success!
I have made a fire sorc, ice sorc and lightning sorc. Because it was fun to play the game and level the character. If people don’t have fun playing the game for progress, why do you choose a genre where character progression through leveling is the core design pillar? If it is soooooo boring to relevel, why do these people play these kind if games at all?
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WOW i seem to have stirred up a hornets nest here. Amazing how a simple question of “what is the EHG philosophy / approach to multiple builds for 1 mastery ?” has turned into tirade of abuse for having dared to express a view and having the audacity to suggest an heretical concept like D3 may actually have some good features should surely damn me to be burned at the stake
Peace and love brothers / sisters not war
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Just don’t say the “D#” word as long as the “#” isn’t a “2”… Play it safe 
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Oh boy, I survived years on Star Citizen forums, this is nothing 
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You’re in a safe space here, show us on the picture where the perfectionist touched you, and how much you paid for it.
For real though lol, I don’t see much abuse here. Little bit of anger, perhaps, but I am jaded.
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