What do you think about Seasons? ...are they really necessary?

Sometimes I want to play seasons and sometimes I just want to fiddle with all of the loot I collected over time and try some wacky stuff that would be unfeasible without lots of specific and strong loot.

What I like about seasons in ARPGs is that new mechanics (be they primary or secondary) can make the game fresh. It also gives me an excuse to try out a completely new build or two. If you like the season then you are good for a few months. If not, take a break and you typically know when to come back. Because the cycles increase revenue, there are often expansions to classes, skills, and general content.

What I ABSOLUTELY H A T E about seasons is when developers do yo-yo balancing. This makes over 90% of non-seasonal builds/classes underpowered or unviable. The biggest reason I left POE was because of this garbage balancing that assumes players are too STUPID to not get bored by playing the exact same build each season. If I want to play a particular build, don’t gut it because you want to force people into your newly reworked playstyle. League of Legends was handled similarly, though it was to force change in their professional scene so that they could keep their E-Sports aspect entertaining (at the cost of all their other players). Conversely, D2 did just fine and did not feel the need to wreck the majority of their character classes each season. Sure, when things like skill synergies came out that changed the balance - but it wasn’t targeted towards funneling people into a predetermined path. There were many builds that synergies actually enabled because of the new system, so I found that to be a great win.

As to seasonal necessity, it can be done without seasons. Games like Titan Quest, Grim Dawn, and Torchlight 1 & 2 proved that. Marvel Heroes had no seasons and did amazing before the company lost its talent/direction and imploded. So it is definitely possible. However, that does not mean there are no strong arguments in favor of seasons. They do encourage people to come back and play a game they left for awhile. Seasonal changes, to me, are like mutators in FPS games. Same game, but different enough to make me rethink how I am playing and what my intermediate goals should be.

Regardless of what we think and discuss there though, the biggest reason that seasons WILL be here is because money. It all comes back to money. Seasons are a good way to get new publicity and grow the playerbase. More people = more money. Also, there is the ever-present push for battle passes, selling limited time cosmetics, new lootboxes, and other monetization schemes that abuse psychology to manipulate people into making impulse buys that they will ultimately regret and try to justify to themselves and others as a coping mechanism down the road. It starts with the fear of missing out, then after the money changes hands and cognitive dissonance sets in, the streamers and advertisements are pushed to normalize reckless and unsustainable spending patterns that CEOs and Investors love so much.

So yeah, seasons are a thing and will be a thing. They can be done in a good way that promotes fun, fresh gameplay and creative experimentation. They can also be plagued by corporate monetization fueling all the decision-making, leading to a greed-fueled train-wreck. GGG started off much like Eleventh Hour Games with people who loved making games and wanted to create the ultimate ARPG (I know because I was in POE’s closed beta all those many years ago). POE isn’t the only example though. Look at CD Projekt Red, Blizzard Entertainment, Gazillion Entertainment, Overkill Software, Tripwire Interactive, and countless other gaming companies that sold out their players in some for or another for that sweet cash. But, only time will tell. There are a few devs like Supergiant Games and Crate Entertainment in the world. What I do know, is that money and power change people - though seldom is it for the better.

edit: grammar

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And if we [EHG of course ^^] instead of Seasons simply call Timelines and market it?
→ If you differentiate that properly you could also bring [beside new Timelines every 3 Months] whole add-ons including new classes or/with timeline packs or something like that.

I just like the idea of letting the time travel stories grow and not fragmenting them every few months. :slightly_smiling_face:

I would totally be down for the paid expansion model that brings a couple new timelines, more items and dungeons, at least one new system, and a character class so long as the price is favorable (like $10-$15, NOT $40-$60). But as we both know, it ain’t up to me.

As for the timeline thing, I am reasonably sure that the devs will capitalize on that aspect because it’s just too good and convenient not to. I don’t know if seasons will focus on new, individual timelines or just “X” has appeared/happened to influence timelines. Also, if they make something that the community really likes in a season then it could be incorporated into the main game. That’s often what happens with seasonal or event mechanics that people go crazy for, plus I am pretty sure that any new timelines they make (that do not objectively suck) will be added to the main game.

Seasons are easy… If the Season setting is good everything is fine and people will play it but if the season setting is bull people will hate it and stay away.

Simple solution: Make good seasonal content and everyone will be happy.

To me it’s a bit different and I’d rather take content updates every 6 months that enhance the overall game instead to start over and over and over rendering standard playmode completely useless.

If you dont like seasons then dont play it, you dont need to write an essay and why you dont want it

Fact is most aRPG players who play seasonal games mainly play seasons/leagues. its good for a fresh start as the game becomes pointless after a while as you accumulate too much shit - Path of Exile without leagues is a cesspool of overpriced gear full of RMTers

Also the excuse of ‘I work full time’ doesnt really fly as I work 45 hours a week and still manage to do everything I want to, leagues usually last 12 or so weeks and im usually done by 5 weeks in

Once EHG releases leagues/season/cycles. Ill never play ‘offline’ or ‘standard’ ever again.

ive spent hundreds of hours min/maxing characters in a league to never ever play them again, that should tell you how much I cling to old characters

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League is as good as content gateting.

So the illusion of choice, “you can play standard if you dont like leagues” argument is flawed becauae you are not really enjoying the full game’s content anymore if you just play standard.

So its either you play standard till you are bored or get “peer pressured” into doing something you dont like.

As good as saying you have freewill but you go to hell if you dont believe.

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I personally hate seasons. Why would I want to start over from square one again without any of the awesome loot I found?

For me, part of an ARPG experience is the journey. It’s empowering when starting at nothing - but it’s not where I want to end. I want to feel that journey of progression from a normal, albeit talented, human into a demigod. This is also a weird experience for a player - when you’ve experienced the game at it’s highest level - think: killing Baal on Hell, why would I enjoy running around a fallen camp? The only reason is to find loot or experience a new feature you otherwise wouldn’t have.

This is why Blizzard and Diablo keep adding “gimmicks” to each season, because it’s easier to add a single, simple feature, rather than adding entire acts. This spoon-feeds the player base something that looks ‘flashy’, but will only be used sparingly, as they repeat the same content over and over again.

Have you enjoyed Warframe? Perfect example of a game that doesn’t reset. I put 1.4k into it over a very short time span. I grouped up with people and enjoyed the social aspect of it. But once I caught up to the lastest content, nothing was coming out fast enough so I quit. It’s been about 2 yrs since I last played. I never knew when was a good time to come back and stopped because I lost the journey of progression. I could’ve came back next patch and played another 20hrs but I would have done everything and the rest of the game turns into a chore.

Leagues are the perfect counter to that. I know about how long I want to push, I know exactly when to return and I can always feel progress.

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Interestingly, I have seldom enjoyed Season/Leagues… Purely because I hate having to organise my real life time around a games arbitrary season schedule. Those seasons that I have played, I have either started halfway through the season or later and miss out on the season rewards or the season has been pretty much a damp squib in terms of “something new to play” and I got too bored to bother… I tend to find seasons like the froth on the top of a coffee… beyond the initial sip it has no bearing on the substance below. Great for testing out balance and tweaking existing base game functionality or trying variations on a skill but generally insipid… Poor for more complicated changes and content that you only have a limited time to experience before it potentially changes again. Seasons used for Guinea pig testings are a no-no.

By contrast, I have always enjoyed formal expansions to games… substantial new content, new classes (in RPG based games etc), new quests etc… I have spent plenty of money on games expansion packs and will likely continue to do so… HOWEVER… its a bit of a double edged sword - I expect MUCH more from expansions that I pay for and if a game messes up an expansion, that is usually a sign for me that its time to move on… I am less strict with Seasons/Leagues as I can just ignore them usually and any irritation they might have caused is short lived…

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After i havent played for some weeks i come back and feel so totaly overwhelmed by all the chars and items i have accumulated over 100s of hours that i really enjoy just hit the SSF button with a build idea and start playing.

Seasons do the same … just start playing and even give it a good reason :slight_smile:

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Can we just have a season mechanic without starting from the scratch?

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I think it would be really interesting to design the Seasons/Leagues/whatever mechanic where you could introduce the content in a way where your existing characters can run it (or, of course, you can create a new one). Maybe make some sort of tangible reason to make a new one (a special item or something).

For me (re: PoE) I just waited for the League to roll into Standard to enjoy whatever the new thing was, but when it didn’t roll into Standard, I missed out on it entirely.

I’m sure the EHG Devs know what “Feature Flags” are in development. Maybe they could use them for Seasons so that they can turn that content on & off in the “main” game, to achieve this goal.

Interesting…

It would probably be much too much work, but I’d imagine a season of new quests could be a nice idea… Like some sort of unique storyline that is only available in the current “temporal timeline” for a limited time… run a unique monolith like quest string for a seasonal drop that is eventually added to the game loot pool (at a much higher rarity a season or two later) and the quest string is expired never to be played again or perhaps just added to the based game as a side quest without seasonal guaranteed rewards. Could even make some seasonal rewards part of a cosmetic sets that you would have to buy if you missed the season but not affecting the actual game like a unique drop might.

I could get behind seasons like that…

For those who are viewing/associating seasons with entire resets and character wipes. Development have already stated they are not planning on doing character wipes unless absolutely necessary when it comes to their season content.

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They will not wipe your old chars but noone said you can play a season with your old char …

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The inverse of that statement is also true, it’s speculative until we get more concrete details. Would be a great question on the dev stream though if they’ve got any details on their plans

Edit: Though as I think about it, it would be a good way to incentivize new characters/playthroughs. I just think about it from a data management point of view and think about all of the bloat that could potentially happen server side

So, lets think about it.

If players don’t continue play through the entire campaign after a certain point, then they are engaging solely in end-game. This means that the Devs have to focus on more and more interesting end-game things to do with your level 100 characters. This could become sort of tedious both for players and even Devs. It could also lead to end-game “bloat”.

So, the better idea (IMHO) would be to design interesting content that isn’t necessarily end-game dependent, and makes players want to go do it. Obviously, something with a high “cool factor” would achieve this, but so can twists in the lore/story. Players could decide to take that level 100 and go do it, or they could decide to roll a new character to do it. That’s why I think the season should have a design element where newly rolled characters can “achieve” something (an item, or a cosmetic, or something) that a previous character is ineligible for.

So, if you just want to go do the new thing - go for it. If you really want that “shiney”, though, you need to roll a new character to get it.

I hate it because I dont want to start over with nothing.

When I click on “create a new character” I’m excited: New things to find out and test. I choose a new class, think about a glorious name and press enter. The intro is skipped because I don’t want to wait to start discovering the skills and how they interact.

But as soon as the intro is over I realize several things:

  • It will take a while until I get the mastery. Until then I have to wait with my idea of skill-set and play-style… Let’s start the journey with 2 hours of clicking skills I never wanted to use.
  • The storymode is just booooring, because I already made it several times. With all the side quests for passives and idol slots it takes me around 10 hours for simply nothing of interest than just getting XP. And the whole time I want to play a fire-skill set but I don’t have the skill points for the “convert to fire” node. Or the passive-points to unlock my main skill. Thats another frustration…
  • Then my toon has to reveal the monolith just to start it all over again to get the higher blessings. Another 20 hours for simply nothing of interest than just getting XP. The skill-set is developed at this time but the drops are simply not worth a look until I hit 100 and some corruption.

Therefore it takes me 30 hours of boring repetition for a new character to bring him to the interesting part. I know other can do that faster but I’m not interested in optimize the boring part.

And all that is the reason why I don’t want to start a season from the scratch. I’m interested in the endgame and playing with the different skills. I’m not willing to put 30 hours of my live for each char and season just to get there.

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So I just went through all the posts again to evaluate who likes classic Seasons now, who would rather imagine something along the lines of “temporal timeline” [thanks Vaporfire, nice term].

If I’m not completely wrong [everyone is allowed to complain about their own classification :kissing_closed_eyes:], it looks like this at the moment:

PRO - Classic Seasons:

Anuwiel; Shtrak; Heavy; TNY; Hybria; Deadaleus.

PRO: Temporal Timelines [Seasonhaters I’ve cheekily put in here too].

Neokortex; Neto; Zaodon; KaiDKB; Babylordx; Ksterner; Vapourfire; Dankin; Fuhrenon

PS: Some people’s opinions seem to have changed a bit during the discussion, so I tried to take the last opinion into account.

Some others, on the other hand, I could not assign with (halfway :wink:) good conscience on the basis of what has been written so far:

Llama8; Houlala; Macknum; Nerdherv02

Whether this is now one of the much said “statistics I have falsified myself”? :grin:
→ And if this brings something to someone I don’t know.

Just keep participating, guys. :+1:

Translated with DeepL Translate: The world's most accurate translator (free version)

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