Use Of Numlock - Intended Or Not?

[Katalaeia]

@XLVI_carpo

The flask macro is officially not allowed by GGG.

Sure, it is officially not allowed, but plenty of people use it without being banned. I’m ultra-casual in PoE and even I’ve seen reference to crap like “tape a popsicle stick across your flask keys to press them all at the same time”. It sounds goofy as hell to me but I bet people have done it.

One action, 5 reactions, and completely undetectable.

I respect the stance that you’re taking against doing things that a game developer states are against their game’s rules. I’m the same way, personally…but the thing is, it doesn’t matter how much you say “it’s against the rules”. If there are undetectable ways to do it, people WILL do it. Hell, people will use detectable means as well, and sometimes some of them even get banned for it.

Some people just like automating things to see what they can get away with. Some people have carpal tunnel and have to choose between automating things and not playing at all. Some people use bots for more nefarious purposes like grinding levels while they sleep, or grinding gear to sell for in-game resources or real money.

The best thing a game creator can do is realize up front that there will be players playing outside the rules, and some of them will be using undetectable methods to do so. It’s part of the cost of doing business. Having autocast functionality for some skills might make sense, but that doesn’t mean the devs should design the game to play itself while you watch, even if there might be outlier players who use automation to do exactly that.

The fact that some players will automate things doesn’t mean the grindy aspects of the game should be designed around it and “legit” players punished.

The fact that some players will use other means to have an advantage in a player-driven economy doesn’t mean that resources should be extra scarce to account for it, and “legit” players wind up punished.

At the end of the day, as long as a player who plays the game as intended (whatever that winds up meaning) has a fun, satisfying experience and gains power at whatever rate is considered normal by the devs…then balance is in the right place. You don’t balance around outliers, you balance around the masses who will be playing the game as intended.

In addition, as a player yourself, you need to accept that people will bend/break the rules or stretch the definition of what is allowed, and there’s nothing you (or the devs, in some cases) can do about it.

[Macknum]

@Katalaeia

In addition, as a player yourself, you need to accept that people will bend/break the rules or stretch the definition of what is allowed, and there’s nothing you (or the devs, in some cases) can do about it.

There is a lot that can be done about it but most devs don’t do it because the loss of players and the bad publicity that comes with it will hurt more then letting some lazy people violate the rules.
Back when EHG stated they want more active gameplay and everything shoule be tiresome to use I already said that this way is a bad move because people would macro everything. Well here we are ^^.

[XLVI_carpo]

I don’t wanna be the white knight and point with my finger at people like “What you do is not allowed”. This is absolutely NOT my intention.

Of course there will be people driving this to the top by automating everything. So the minor tweaks are found ok. The stupid thing is when game companies make rules but don’t interfere when they are broken because of fear to lose the player base. That’s either poor politics or poor game design. Or both.

Wouldn’t it be terrible to start with a new game where some builds - e.g. like @Swylli mentioned - are absolutely unfun to use without macros?

@Macknum: I totally can understand the intention of EHG. Imho this is ok for an MMO with long uptimes and cool downs, but it doesn’t work for this fast paced combat of an ARPG.

[Llama8]

@XLVI_carpo

@Macknum: I totally can understand the intention of EHG. Imho this is ok for an MMO with long uptimes and cool downs, but it doesn’t work for this fast paced combat of an ARPG.

PoE begs to differ & that’s significantly faster paced than LE.

[Katalaeia]

@Macknum

There is a lot that can be done about it but most devs don’t do it because the loss of players and the bad publicity that comes with it will hurt more then letting some lazy people violate the rules.

Right, this is a line a game developer has to tread. I’ll refer to any of the numerous cases where a dev inserts shitty DRM into their game, that actually makes the game perform worse on a “legit” version of the game than a cracked version with the DRM removed. Sometimes not taking action is actually better because it preserves the game experience for non-cheating players (which is as it should be).

@XLVI_carpo

The stupid thing is when game companies make rules but don’t interfere when they are broken because of fear to lose the player base.

Again, if the “interference” would screw over the legit players, it’s not stupid.

Each situation has to be weighed, and with how transparent the LE devs have been up to this point, I’ve no doubt it’s already something that’s on their radar.

I find it impossible to believe they will actively try to block every single possible cheat/automation/workaround. As with my “popsicle stick” example, many are simply not detectable, and with the existence of programmable gaming mice/keyboards, this point is enhanced.

So, if they can’t interfere when the rules are broken because they have no way to detect that the rules are being broken (other than perhaps people whining on the forum, which is not proof)…is that still stupid?

[XLVI_carpo]

@Katalaeia

So, if they can’t interfere when the rules are broken because they have no way to detect that the rules are being broken (other than perhaps people whining on the forum, which is not proof)…is that still stupid?

Indeed. It is stupid to set up rules I don’t be able or willing to force. What is the sense of this?

@Katalaeia

I find it impossible to believe they will actively try to block every single possible cheat/automation/workaround.

This may be true. And I hope the devs nevertheless will do all they can to detect and prevent cheating. It would be the instant death of this game when they are negligent because they think they won’t be able to stop them anyway. This would be a bad attitude.

And just because something is popular it does not get legit automatically. Legit is what the devs declare as legit. So when EHG is of the opinion that using numlock is ok, they should make a statement. But then they also should rethink to change their skill mechanics and not force players to use a workaround.

If they are of the opinion that using numlock violates their rules they should also make a statement and be ready to detect and tackle rule-breakers.

The worst they can do is state that it is against their rules, but do nothing about it. This would make them implausible.

[Katalaeia]

@XLVI_carpo

Indeed. It is stupid to set up rules I don’t be able or willing to force. What is the sense of this?

By this logic, having ANY rules against automation means that they need to be 100% enforceable, and as I and other posters have indicated, there are undetectable methods out there.

So they should just not have any rules at all on this subject, just because unenforceable methods exist? It should just be “the Wild West” because some people can find ways to automate things that would not be detectable by the game?

@XLVI_carpo

Legit is what the devs declare as legit. So when EHG is of the opinion that using numlock is ok, they should make a statement.

This same logic could be applied towards Diablo 3 and some of the “workarounds” people use in that game. Blizzard won’t come out and definitively state whether a given “workaround” is legal or not, but it is for good reason. If “workaround” #1 is legal, then people will pressure them for a stance on #2, #3, #4…and all of this ties up resources that could be better utilized elsewhere. Being a major studio, Blizzard has a lot more resources it can invest into anti-cheat measures, and people STILL use automation in their games.

I might be misinterpreting your posts and if I am, I apologize. The way you are coming across is that you want very specific black-and-white lists of what is permitted or not permitted, and you want everything on the “not permitted” list to be rigidly enforced. I think this kind of stance is unreasonable, personally. They could announce numlocking is not permitted and they could even try to go so far as to break any interaction based around the numlock key - but people could just use built-in macros on their gaming keyboards/mice, or external software, to simulate the keypress just the same and make it not detectable or enforceable.

Does it mean that they should make a statement expressly permitting numlocking because banning it would be unenforceable? If so, by that logic, they should just make a blanket statement that automation is fine because a lot of automation can be done in undetectable ways.

Having a very black and white view of things tends to be more headache than it’s worth. I don’t automate or use macros. Even if allowable I probably wouldn’t numlock because I consider it cheating. However if someone else uses it, I don’t give a flying f*ck. It doesn’t affect me and worrying about it is silly.

[XLVI_carpo]

There will always be cheats that are undetectable (when they are new). What would you suggest the devs to do about it? Nothing, because it’s too complicated and not worth the effort?

What GGG did was to officially declare flask macro is forbidden. They also encouraged people to report violence of this rule. But they did not ban the popular streamers although they got reported and recorded violating their rules. This is not how I think it should be.

But I don’t want to discuss about cheats in general.

This is just about the use of autocast and the reason behind this. Why do people use it? Because some skills feel uncomfortable. And when I was one of the devs I would not be pleased when people don’t like the skills I develop and use workarounds to make them comfortable to use.

@Katalaeia

However if someone else uses it, I don’t give a flying f*ck. It doesn’t affect me and worrying about it is silly.

I am not worrying about other people using macros. I am asking why do people - like me - feel forced to use a macro. And what do the devs think about it. Do they also feel that the skills they designed may need an overhaul in terms of user friendliness? Or are they satisfied with how it is and that people don’t like it.

[Katalaeia]

@XLVI_carpo

I am not worrying about other people using macros. I am asking why do people - like me - feel forced to use a macro.

I agree with the concept.

However, some people will find literally any reason to say they’re “forced” to do something in order to justify their own behavior. “Well, so-and-so uses a bot to gain 10 blorpuses per hour while they sleep. I’m short on blorpuses and, don’t want to buy them from botters, I can’t sit at my computer all night, so I’m forced to use a bot too so I’m not left out.” It’s a slippery slope.

I think a good course of action in this respect would be to pick out specific skills that feel ungainly to use without automation, and suggest alternatives to the devs for testing.

[XLVI_carpo]

@XLVI_carpo

My question is how the devs feel about this. This function was not possible I’d make a suggestion post about the ability to toggle autocast on and off for certain skills.

@XLVI_carpo

While Ring Of Shields is very easy to use without any automation Devouring Orb or Sigils of hope is a pain to use. The cool down and up times are relatively short and you have to keep track of the number of stacks. This breaks the flow and is not very comfortable.

@XLVI_carpo

I would appreciate a checkbox on the hotbar to toggle autocast on an off for aura like skills. Another solution would be to change the skills into aura directly and add that a percentage of your max mana pool is reserved / blocked from use as long as the aura is up.

@Swylli

i know when i ran Maelstrom+Tornado+Ice Thorns while having to manually use earthquake and my basic attack a real pain (Maelstrom, Tornado and Ice Thorns specced on insta-cast and max cd reduction + cd reduction helm). My hands went numb. (Well okay, the basic attack didn’t matter… that one was comfortable… but having to hold 3 buttons, while using a 4th from time to time really hurts… try it xD) So i do feel like some kind of auto-cast is needed. :x

There already is something in here. You just have to read the posts.

[Katalaeia]

Yep, but I was responding to this post, not those.

[DxDark]

@XLVI_carpo

I don’t know what else I could tell you. Did you look at the link I posted? The flask macro is officially not allowed by GGG.

But you’ll notice no one over there cares…because it’s stupid over-reach by GGGs stupid legal department. 90k players autocasting Vaal Haste doesn’t break GGGs already bot-infested economy, bots do…and bots don’t need macros to micromanage their casts.