In another forum post @Moxjet200 asked for suggestions for trade that would not harm the goal of making killing monsters the primary acquisition method of acquiring loot. I’ve also seen a ‘trade dungeon’ suggested before but not fully fleshed out. About 3 months ago I made a video that talked about the goals of both sides and gave a theoretical framework for how an Auction House could be used to hit both EHG’s and the community’s goals for a trade system. In this post I’m going to lay out a framework for a Dungeon trade system that also hits the goals of both sides with the goal being to show that multiple systems are capable of accomplishing these goals. I am not explicitly endorsing a dungeon system (I still prefer an AH) but the intent here is to establish that either of these systems would be far better than the current gifting system at appealing to both Trade and SSF players while still hitting EHG’s own trade goals.
Before I begin let’s lay out the goals I identified in the original video:
EHG
- Limit RMT (Real Money Transactions)
- Don’t devalue item acquisition through gameplay
- Don’t create an ‘economy simulator’
- Don’t require a 3rd party app to trade (i.e. poe.trade and its successors)
Community
- Make trading relatively convenient (not too much ‘friction’)
- Make it meaningful (items traded for are actually worthwhile)
- Make it so players who don’t want to trade don’t have to (balance for SSF)
Not every player has the three goals above but I believe if all three goals are met then the vast majority of players will consider the system at the very least satisfactory to their own trade goals. Sure, there will be players that want a completely open economy but since that goes in direct opposition to EHG’s it’s not a realistic option.
Trade Dungeon
I’m going to list out in bullet point fashion how the dungeon will work and then layout the purpose of each aspect of the dungeon and consider possible objections:
- Trade tokens drop in the world like keys. They work just like keys insofar as the player needs to reach a certain location on the map in order to use them.
- Just like a key, the token opens up a dungeon that players will need to complete. This includes a boss fight that is thematic to the trade vendor.
- Completing the dungeon leads to a vendor where 1 item can be listed for a price chosen by the player and 1 item can be purchased from the existing inventory. The existing inventory consists of items that have been listed by other players who have cleared the same tier of dungeon.
- The existing inventory can be rerolled at an increasing gold price.
- When a player lists an item and that item is purchased by another player, a portion of the gold goes to the player who listed the item.
- The Dungeon has 4 tiers. Lower tiers only allow players to list less valuable items like basic crafting materials, while tier 4 allows for the very best items like exalted items and/or uniques with LP. Each tier of the dungeon is progressively harder.
Purpose/Possible Objections
- Why is trading locked behind a dungeon? It creates scarcity for trading, limiting how much it can be done even at the highest levels. Players can only trade a maximum of once for every key they have (and are unlikely to trade that much due to dungeon failure and not finding an item they want).
- Why only one listing and trade per dungeon? Just like locking it behind a dungeon this creates scarcity. It ensures that there aren’t too many items listed at any given time and items that would bloat the market are unlikely to be listed since players will prioritize high value items. It also adds QoL since players don’t have to think about trading every single item in their inventory that has even a small amount of worth and can focus on big ticket items instead.
- Why increasing gold price on rerolls? So it’s not easy for players to find exactly what they want, but they still have some control over it if they’re willing to invest. If rolls were infinite people would spend an inordinate amount of time at the vendor trying to find the perfect item instead of playing the game, but having no rerolls presents a strong ‘feels bad’ if the initial offering is poor. Being able to reroll but at a cost that gets higher over time is a good middle ground.
- Why have a gold cost for purchases? Why not just be required to place an item to receive an item? It would be way too easy to defeat the system by placing a bad item in to get a good item out. There has to be an opportunity cost for listing bad items and a reward for listing good items (getting gold for selling the item) or else the vendor would quickly get overrun with bad items and become useless. Also, we still want to have an economy while keeping it limited and not letting it overtake the primary game loop of killing monsters and getting loot, so buying and selling at the vendor is a vital part of the system.
- Why lock the best items behind difficult content? EHG wants the primary means of gear acquisition to be through killing monsters. By locking the best items behind difficult tier 4 content it requires players to already have a build that’s good enough to complete the content before having access to the best stuff. This means they already had to farm good drops through other means than the economy in order to reach the vendor with the best inventory. However, by still having some trade opportunities at lower tiers players can still engage in the economy from relatively early on so people who like to trade still get to do it. Also, by requiring players to defeat a dungeon in order to trade, we are actively working within the framework of killing monsters to get loot even when we are trading. I don’t think it can be overemphasized how cool it would be to see LE be the first game to have trading become a distinct part of the monster killing/looting loop instead of a way to bypass that loop.
Does a Dungeon Meet Everyone’s Goals?
Let’s start with EHG
- Limit RMT - It would be very difficult to RMT in this system since there is no way to list an item for sale to other players and sell it directly to them. This functionality is similar to how the bazaar would have handled it. The difference is we’re incentivizing players to put only the best items up in a predefined area (tier 4) so that looking through the inventory remains exciting and rewarding even for players with well geared builds.
- Don’t devalue item acquisition through gameplay - The best stuff is kept from the player until they have a build that can already handle difficult content. Best of all, using trade through a dungeon system means trade becomes part of gameplay, so item acquisition through gameplay is preserved even in extreme cases where it might otherwise override gameplay. Trade tokens also require players to hunt them in the world.
- Don’t create an ‘economy simulator’ - Limiting trade through Trade tokens that are required in order to make a trade and limiting buying and selling to once per token makes it effectively impossible for someone to just ‘play the market’. Having the best stuff behind tier 4 also means the most exciting trade items don’t even open up until players have built their character up to a reasonably high level.
- Don’t require a 3rd party app to trade (i.e. poe.trade and its successors) - A third party app won’t even work since there’s no way to list items for other players to find.
Now the community
- Make trading relatively convenient (not too much ‘friction’) - While there is friction in the system (you literally have to run through a dungeon to trade) I believe this is the right kind since it is actual gameplay and not some sort of system whose sole purpose is to make trading harder. Mind you, it would be up to the devs to make the dungeon a fun and enjoyable experience, but that’s something that absolutely can happen. Once a player finishes the dungeon the actual trade experience is straightforward. List one item for a price the player wants to sell it for, and then choose to purchase an item from the vendors inventory for the price that is listed (no haggling, no messaging the seller, no meeting them at a hideout). Reroll if they can afford it. Once a purchase is made, we’re done. Most players will be in and out quickly and the ones that aren’t will be having a good time looking at all of the cool stuff and trying to choose between several good options.
- Make it meaningful (items traded for are actually worthwhile) - T4 dungeons will only be accessible to people who already have really good items to sell and are looking for really good items in return. It would be a waste of time to run the dungeon for a minor purchase or to list a basic blue item. A player finally getting to the point where they can run the T4 dungeon would be exciting since there’s now a possibility of getting an incredible item that has been hand picked by another high level player who thinks they can sell it for a big profit. Even lower tiers present possible upgrades or crafting materials that would make running the dungeon worth it while not making it potentially game changing and ruining the loot grind.
- Make it so players who don’t want to trade don’t have to (balance for SSF) - A system like this goes with the pre established flow of balance and loot grind, fitting in nicely at every stage of progression instead of potentially ruining it. The only stage where players would get a significant advantage is deep into endgame when builds are already strong enough to run the highest tier of dungeons, meaning there’s no reason to ever reduce drop rates in a way that would harm SSF. SSF players would actually be very closely linked in power to trade players until very late since at most people would run the dungeon a few times on their way to T4 content and only get relatively small upgrades if they’re lucky.
I know this was a ton of text but I really wanted to detail how a system like this could work for almost every type of player as well as EHG.