Trade development update - Introducing merchants guild and circle of fortune factions

[DrinkFromTheCup]

Thank you for descending directly. Yes, descending, because we both see that they consider me as a lesser being. Lesser than themselves. But it’s completely different topic, a theme of which will be ‘community shaping’. The shaping of community you’d like to see. Of the community you yourself would like to play with, together as equals.

@EHG_Mike

I think that calling MG non-SSF guild and CoF SSF guild are misleading, mostly because (and I’m sure you know this) SSF means Solo Self Found.

Agreed!
Do note, however, that I had no choice. Because the choice-in-question was “either write an adequate in-depth analysis noone would care about because ‘too many letters derp’ - or write a short yet somewhat unprecise pitch which shall start a discussion from which all relevant points would gonna surface eventually”.
However, as you can see, as example, from Voctor’s response to my micro-pitch, people are struggling even with reading such small yet intel-dense pitches. Still too many letters. He’d see otherwise that

@Trasochi

We’ll be introducing a new item type called Resonances that drop when you’ve played alongside a player for a very extended period of time. Using a resonance on an item will enable it to be gifted to that player even if they were not present when the item dropped.

implies that BOTH players receive a Resonance. For each other (because, obviously, player A can’t spend less time in party with player B than player B spends time in party with player A. They just don’t teach maths and logics as good as they should nowadays…) Which, in return, implies that they can arrange an exchange of any item for any item. Which, suprpisingly, IS act of trading. So Voctor’s statement

@Voctor

Seems like you misunderstood this, and then made a lot of assumptions based on that. Player A could gift something to Player B, but Player B can’t do anything with it. Anything Player A finds would have a CoF requirement, so Player B couldn’t equip it.

is, well, invalid. Invalid - or he was making a point via micro-pitch too (if it’s true, I’d be really proud of him).
Now, to avoid straying away too much, I’d like to take a liberty to actually try to highlight few disturbing points in your response.

@EHG_Mike

Comparable efficiency between trade and non-trade.

That’s the problem. These are in a perfect balance already. That’s how real economics works, you know.
The player either grinds his rear out to loot his chase item from… whatever mechanics would gonna dispense it in PvE session - or the player grinds his rear out to obtain enough currency (and/or an item to barter it away) to get his chase item.
If the balance is tilted - the dreaded Invisible Hand of Market fixes it.
No extra development required.

@EHG_Mike

Avoid exploit cases to prevent unfun burdens of optimal play.

I’d really appreciate if you’ll elaborate on the topic of exploits. I, however, surmise that I just wrote a response for it already.

@EHG_Mike

All items obtained by using your factions special bonuses (Bazaar for MG and drops for CoF) carry a rank requirement to equip, similar to a level requirement. This means that if a CoF player is giving items to a MG player, those items are limited to being used only while the player is representing the CoF. The MG player would need to switch over to CoF and gain some ranks before being able to use it. The items can’t be sold at the Bazaar.

Alas, what’s the point in this ‘simplest’ (nope) and ‘most complete’ (nope x2, apologies!) system?
I assume that you’re trying to solve the two chairs situation in a manner which would gonna help new (and socially active, and time-constrained - I mean us working class who can’t play the game 24/7 because families and jobs, you know) players to get at least some gear which would gonna allow them to enjoy the game at least marginally while letting tryhards, nolifers and souls-like enjoyers revel in their burutual (sic!) entertainment.
But the game delivers the former already, in a form of excellent crafting framework you devised.
Care for a fortune telling session, to wrap this up? Yes, a fortune telling. Because I simply can’t stick WHOLE research in this (already ‘obese’) post. And people pay hard cash for such researches…

So, the fortune telling.
I foresee that the Bazaar would gonna win regardless of how hard you try.
Vast majority of players would gonna enroll there.
New players would enjoy extra means for fixing their builds in a jiffy.
Seasoned players would stick with it because they can afford fixing handicaps of not joining Circle of Fortune by simply playing more (which they’ll be doing anyway). AND would enjoy extra means for min-maxing their build in a jiffy.
Circle of Fortune would gonna remain as an enclave of extra sick persons which don’t have enough challenge in their life. You know, that special breed of persons which play Dark Souls with Guitar Hero controller, just for sense of pride and accomplishment.
Oh, and if you’ll try to keep pressing on with this idea, you’ll lose anyway. Ruthless have reached release. And, unfortunately, masochists are NOT eager to swap their current ‘entertainment’. Simply because they receive enough joy shots at where they currently are - and these are strong… too strong to counter CURRENT doze of joy HERE with PROMISES of stronger joy SOMEWHERE IN THE FUTURE.

I know already that the intel above would be of no use. Both you and me can’t imagine altering release plans because of a feedback of a single player, regardlss of how good that feedback is. We both know it.

Still, HOPEFULLY, it’ll gonna be of any utility for those who shall arrive after us.
After you, a developer of a legend in the making.
And after me, a veteran of gamedev which can tell you one thing for sure: the only thing which guarantees losing is giving up on improving. And there’s always some room for improvement…

[BroncoCollider]

@Shrukn

You want to restrict many parts of the trading

Once you’ve ranked up MG all the way, you can buy and sell any item. That sounds pretty unrestricted to me.

[Shrukn]

@BroncoCollider

Once you’ve ranked up MG all the way, you can buy and sell any item. That sounds pretty unrestricted to me.

Right but there is a favour cost and slot limit to sold items. The favour cost might be negligible or really impactful but there is still an element of restriction

[EHG_Mike]

I’m sorry we couldn’t see eye to eye on this.

[Voctor]

@DrinkFromTheCup

Which, in return, implies that they can arrange an exchange of any item for any item. Which, suprpisingly, IS act of trading.

Yes, this would allow Player A to transfer the item into Player B’s inventory. The game just wouldn’t allow Player B to equip or sell it, so it’s just a jpeg they can look at or vendor. All of the gear that drops for Player A gains an additional requirement beyond the normal level and class requirements - a requirement that the player who is trying to equip it must be a certain level in the CoF faction.

So yeah, it is a way for player A to give an item to Player B. It’s just pointless because Player B can’t sell it (you can’t sell items with CoF requirements), and could only equip it by switching faction and abandoning everything they gained from trade. Items that you buy have an MG requirement just like items that the CoF player found have a CoF requirement, so switching to use the CoF item means unequipping everything that they bought.

There is no way to equip both an item purchased via MG and an item found by a CoH player at the same time. They have mutually exclusive requirements, and meeting the requirement for one necessarily involves losing the requirement for the other. It’s like saying that you found a game breaking build that uses a bow and Fractured Crown at the same time, there is no way to meet both requirements on a single character so it isn’t a real exploit.

@DrinkFromTheCup

These are in a perfect balance already.

They aren’t because currently the game has no trade. He’s saying that they want to add trade, but doing so means that players who trade will gear up faster than players that don’t. The intention is to give players who don’t want to trade a way to attain gear as fast as a player who does want to trade. Just look at how fast players progress in PoE SSF vs trade league and it is very clear that having access to trade lets you advance faster. They’re giving players who voluntarily give up this boosted progression a different kind of boost in exchange, and they believe that they can balance the two such that they are roughly equivalent options.

For the rest, I already said I think that MG will be stronger so I guess I kind of agree with you on that part? Just not with the extremely abrasive way you’ve chosen to articulate it.

[EHG_Mike]

I understand that this is a high tension topic and I would urge everyone to just remember to keep it respectful and about the issues. Taking little shots here and there isn’t constructive.

[ponpoko]

1 Can I use resonance to only dropped items? Can I use resonance to traded-items too?

2 If my mind change, can I remove the resonance from items before gifting them?(for example, actuary I want to sell it than gift / gift to another player)

Or does resonance consumes only at the same time when gifting the items, can not use in advance?

edit
berore→before

[EHG_Mike]

You can use resonance on traded items. It however does not remove the MG tag from those items so it would need to be used by someone who also has the required rank of MG.

Resonancing an item can’t be undone. It’s like a crafting material in a way, you can’t unshatter an item.

[BroncoCollider]

My expectation is that they will have the numbers tuned so that they will almost exclusively impact Trade Lords. For the rest of us, restrictions you don’t/rarely bump into aren’t really restrictions.

[ponpoko]

I understand.
Thank you!

[McFluffin]

My Master’s degree in Philosophy causes me to shudder at the way you’re incorrectly using Philosophical terms to brow beat and verbally assault others. Please stop doing that so that we can have a productive discussion on these topics that provides valuable feedback which respects everyone’s viewpoint.

[ponpoko]

I would have to actually play it to know for sure, but…

I understand that MGs have access to the bazaar and can loot only less amounts of items than FoG.
Yes, full agree!

However, at least, while playing with a party, MG do not have immediate equip to most (or all?) of the gifts of dropped items given by CoF…
Otherside, CoF can equip all drop items in the party play… right?

So, at least during party play, for MG,
MG+MG>MG+COF?

If so, Is not it necessary some advantage that would not gain with only MG party while MG party including CoF such as small amount IR bonus or something?

Otherwise, won’t the time comes MG unwelcome CoF eventually?
Well… that may be the way factions are.

(And maybe, essantially I guess CoF’s proceed speed will be slowly than MG, so I think no one angry if CoF side get additional similar advantage like this, such as drop gold bonus while they party with MG.)

Just my two cents.

[ponpoko]

Ah… additional question…

Do alll trade items need the resonance for gifting item?

Or MG buys the item from bazaar while they are in the party, the item treated as drop item, so the item not need resonance for the same party member?

Edit Ok, all trade items has MG-tag so all tradee items is not treated as drop items, so all trade item need resonance… right?

[Shrukn]

@Trasochi

As you advance in the guild, you’ll be able to trade set items, idols, uniques, exalted items, uniques with Legendary Potential and even Legendary Items.

I have a question in regards to Idols, are magic idols going to be able to be traded freely?

I can say it took me a long time to collect a really nice set of idols and even playing CoF long term not sure how that will help us target the affixes we want other than ‘more idols drop’, whereas just going on the Bazaar and attempting to find Idols with exact rolls might be fairly easy, especially when attempting to price them as a player, failing and other playing snapping up their BiS Idols for a pittance

My only 2 issues with LE regarding trade/gear acquirement is Idols and Timeline boss uniques, everything else was pretty decent

So imagine there was cheap idols/uniques available for relatively low MG level but were locked solely behind MG levels but you can acquire them early…it would be quite hard to try and play CoF as you simply cant play that build now

So my issue is if magic Idols are freely tradeable there is no way im not going MG … magic idols are going to be interesting to deal with

[Llama8]

@Shrukn

players should also have to decide if they want to trade or have better drops

Which is what this “overly complex” system does. Did you read Mike’s post above yours?

@Shrukn

Funny thing for me is I wanted trade to smooth out my experience, from what I read it would be a semi-nightmare of work-like style points system

They don’t want trade to be far and away the best and easiest way to get gear. But they do want you to be able to use it to mitigate RNG ####ing you over. As you & others say, we’ll need to see how it goes in practice.

@DrinkFromTheCup

either write an adequate in-depth analysis noone would care about because ‘too many letters derp’

Plenty of others do that and it’s generally well received, or at the very least treated as a good faith discussion.

@DrinkFromTheCup

So Voctor’s statement … is, well, invalid

Not really, you seemed to imply that the MG player would be able to use the CoF-dropped gear, which they can’t without changing factions and using a separate set of gear, nor would they be able to sell said CoF-dropped/tagged gear. If that wasn’t what you meant then maybe you either used the wrong letters (it happens to all of us), or you’re doing yourself and the community a disservice and not using enough letters.

@DrinkFromTheCup

These are in a perfect balance already.

In the game that’s offline with no trade? Or the game that’s online with no trade (i dont consider gifting trade)?

I do like the passive-aggressive perjoratives that you seem to sprinkle liberally through your posts, if I might make a suggestion, how about you use fewer of those letters and maybe more other letters. Then your post may come across a bit less bitter and entitled.

@Shrukn

Right but there is a favour cost and slot limit to sold items.

Hopefully that means that not every piece of tat gets added to the market. That’s both a good and bad thing.

@DrinkFromTheCup

meaned

Meant. Oh the irony.

@DrinkFromTheCup

Once again, Mike_W, is that the community you yourself would feel comfortable playing with, shoulder to shoulder?

One that tries to understand the other’s position and have a concersation? Probably yes.

@BroncoCollider

My expectation is that they will have the numbers tuned so that they will almost exclusively impact Trade Lords.

Eventually, yes. Im just not entirely sure how quickly they’ll get there.

hug @McFluffin maybe I’ll take the piss of your degree less?

@ponpoko

Ok, all trade items has MG-tag so all tradee items is not treated as drop items, so all trade item need resonance… right?

Yes. And you can’t re-trade already traded items, so no buying an item from the bazaar then trading it directly to another playet (as contrasted gifting it to them).

@Shrukn

I have a question in regards to Idols, are magic idols going to be able to be traded freely?

They are equipable so will be tradeable, yes.

[ponpoko]

Thank you!

[stipen]

The more I read and understand it.the more I like it
Stick with it and don’t go full open trade
Thanks

[iogann]

If there is direct trading between players, it can be be used to RMT easily, bypassing the resonance system. Or am I missing something?

[ClownCombat]

This will be my favorite Game for a long, long Game to come, as I have trust in EHG. I love you guys. Your solution is creative, innovative and sounds fun! I am so excited!

So, with Factions coming, will the EXP-Echo-Reward affect faction progress after level 100? x)

[Heavy]

Yes it is possible and not entirely unexploitable, however trading will cost favor for both parties involved.
On top of that only items without a CoF requirement can be traded.
And items can only be traded once.

So while all of this never rules out any abuse of the system it limits it in very severe ways.

Will it still happen? Of course, but that will be the case for any other system as well.