Trade development update - Introducing merchants guild and circle of fortune factions

Developer Blog
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So, if i understand this correctly, you want the enhanced drop rates and better target farming of CoF and being able to buy whatever specific piece of gear with specific affixes that you want from an AH. The AH isn’t supposed to be used to bypass sucky rng if you’re playing as CoF. CoF has improved drop rates and better target farming (just how improved and how much better nobody knows, just like we don’t know how much toull be interacting with the AH as MG).

Yes, 'cause as MG you’ve got the AH to help mitigate bad luck. The enhanced drop rates/prophecies are for CoF. Kinda sounds like you want all the best skills and passives of every class to build an uber character.

So you accept that the devs didn’t give the specifics of how much of a buff to drop rates CoF is giving? That was my only point. The devs are going to try to balance the two so neither faction is too much better on average than the other. Which is what balancing the numbers (drop rate enhancements, favour costs, etc) is for which is why they’ve not given those details to us.

Probably not, no.

Funny, given there are other posts saying the exact opposite makes me think the 1 ideas are pretty good in principle.

We don’t know. Being able to buy the specific item you want withe the exact modifiers you want is a phenomenally powerful thing so both nesd to be balanced together. As I’ve (& the devs) said repeatedly.

You do know that the factions aren’t real? They aren’t cimpanies trying to sell stuff to you to make a profit and pay staff, they’re just fluff/lore/story surrounding a mechanic to help the player enjoy playing the more. Anthropomorphising them does no-one any good.

Exactly, the 2 factions need to be balanced (ish), it’s a novel concept that rarely gets raised in game forums. Though, one point you may have missed, trading will require favour and rank.

Well, hopefully “you or anyone else” will have actually read up about the 2 factions.

Fortunately you won’t have to, this isn’t PoE, trade can be done via AH or in person (both will have the same favour requirements) whichever floats your boat. Though, the devs don’t want people to “play economy simulator”.

Not quite. A) drops are better in a group, B)if you are CoF and your (CoF or MG) mate drops an item you want, they can gift it to you(using resonance if you weren’t in game/party/zone when it happened). And if you’re MG, well, tou gave the AH to use to buy stuff.

Or maintain 2 gear sets, as the devs have aaid a lot.

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Exactly, that is the entire point. They dont want us to play CoF with drop rate buffs then quickly switch toG to trade.

To, erm, play with them? You know, for the fun of killing mobs and finding loot together. Sorry if that’s too arcane a concept for you. Plus you’ll still be able to gift or use resonances and if you’re both CoF you’ll be able to use the gear.

And that is the game we’re getting. If you don’t want to party up, that’s your choice.

You do you, if that’s how you want to play the game, you can.

For what gain? Genuinely curious.

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No I don’t. in fact I don’t want trade at all maybe gifting but, that is it. I think I’ve been pretty clear on this from the start.

again No I do not want trading or an AH of any kind and the rest of what I typed I feel supports this so, I have no idea where you’re getting this idea from? Features in a game for me and everyone else I’ve ever spoken to isn’t just a checklist of what is or isn’t in a game. Features are fleshed out, viable and, useful additions to a stand alone system.

As this whole paragraph states It doesn’t check the boxes for being useful or viable. Its like a colorblind assist feature that only lets you change the color of some things to green or red some of the time. This isn’t a colorblind assist feature its an item checked off a list that Isn’t/barely usable.
As I stated I don’t want any trade so I’m not looking to make any kind of uber character

was the point I was making.

another Typo or rather miss word all together “So COF isn’t just a better experience” (these tools really do not like contractions it seems). Also when this is read in context with the rest of the sentence it is a part of the intent is a lot easier to see.

I don’t really understand this like at all? You can only be in one faction at a time and each faction has clear limits and barriers to them intermingling. This in conjunction with the fact unless you’re willing to start from 0 switching to the other faction isn’t exactly a glowing prospect. Both factions by very definition are in competition. Each one is putting out an argument and incentives to choose their side over the other. They will be adjusted, tuned and, maybe even balanced to better achieve the fantasy they are describing to players. I personally do not see any Anthropomorphising here at all. Just being realistic.

I answered this already in this post. I’ll quote it again in case the formatting is weird.

I quoted these two one after the other so I can answer both at one time. The dev’s did mention having to maintain two gear sets. now its important to know these things are not just instantly done no it is in fact a three stop process. The “maintain two gear sets” is Step 3

  1. pick a league and play the game with you and your buddie
  2. find sick loot and then trade them with friends if they are there or with resonance which is

Then have the recipient either make a new character or swap factions and start from zero grinding out rep to increase their faction level to be able to use the item as the devs stated

  1. Keep doing this over and over to be able to maintain two gear sets.
    Do you see the issue I’m seeing here? In order to maintain two gear you must do one of the following
    A.) level two chars in two factions at once.
    B.) swap factions and level them on the same char.
    C.) don’t do trades with people from other guilds at all because of all the leg work you’ll just have to repeat and just buy them from the AH or farm them yourself.
    So given option A and B aren’t great as they have lots of time commitment and barriers to them our viable solution is C.) so again I ask you again why even play with people from the other guild? This also the solution to statement I posed earlier

So I didn’t include this earlier because in truth this is a loophole that will need to be addressed. If you do not see what I mean take this example. Player A and Player B are both CoF we go fight bosses. Player A is max faction level player B just joined. Player A will get the fat look Player B is still on reduced rates. Player A then boosts Player B by gifting all drops breezing through the entirety of the game. Yes this can happen and will happen as there is no limit as it stands on trades aside from resonance and location.
This is also assuming they want to just actually fight bosses as opposed to just ya know farming gold and just buying items. Under normal conditions dealing with the beast knows as convivence is hard enough now you’ll need to convince people to want to do and as I’ve stated before with what they’ve shown I just do not see it.

For what gain? How about to remain in the game? The MG and CoF are not companies but, EHG Is and, like all of them they have to make decisions. If 98% of players want to live in the MG world and 2% want CoF this is ok but, you have to consider something important. Both take the same significant amount of time and resources to maintain. Time, Money and, Man power is not unlimited so questions will have to raised.
A.) Continue to dump money and time into both projects despite one of them being extremely underutilized and ignore the fact that talent (there’s a lot on this team dev team) could be better used anywhere else
B.) Stop pouring money into what has become a pit of wasted resources.
As I stated earlier Convivence is already hard enough to overcome (people will order pizza from a chain and get rehydrated food vs going to a local pizza place) and that is what the MG effectively is. You go out and find the best gold and rep farm and you stick to it. You buy your way through the game. CoF is the opposite by its very design its the least convenient option that could exist. Better drop rates and prophecies are nice but, they aren’t guarantees and an AH to supplement this is still no guarantee as any kind of trade in CoF has to be extremely hard restricted to balance it.
Fast vs slow these two factions are in competition for your time which is ultimately the proof either system is not a waste of resources. Also to be clear this is something unique for CoF . Lets say MG just is not worth the effort or time to farm the money and rep. 98% go to the CoF and 2% to MG. positions are reversed the situation is the same.

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What Llama was pointing out is the details are so sparce at this point that drawing any conclusions about the balance between CoF and MG is futile right now. The only thing we can really go off of is the devs stated intention to have both relatively balanced so that neither has a massive advantage. If they achieve that goal then it sounds like you’re good to go. If not, then we’ll need to provide feedback so that they can adjust and get it in line with their own stated goals.

I’m really confused by some of your statements. Are you talking about if you’re playing with a friend who wants to trade in MG and you’re CoF and you’re giving them a CoF item? Otherwise, you wouldn’t need to do any of that.

Do you see the issue I’m seeing here? In order to maintain two gear you must do one of the following

Why are you maintaining two gear sets? Didn’t you state previously that you don’t want to trade? I’m guessing this is on the assumption that trade will be too good, but then why are you switching back to CoF if you don’t think it’s worth it? Again, I’m very confused as to how all of these assumptions are falling into place in this argument. The assumptions are so baked in and not clearly stated that it’s hard to find the premises of your argument which makes it hard to drill down and address them.

If 98% of players want to live in the MG world and 2% want CoF this is ok but, you have to consider something important.

I guess this is an assumption you’re making? I’m not sure where you came up with the idea that it would be such a skewed system. Most of what we’re seeing in the community is a ton of excitement for CoF. So much so that I’d be more concerned about something closer to the opposite: that CoF is so popular that there isn’t a healthy economy for MG.

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I dont understand why this keeps happening? But ive said at least 6 times i dont want trade of any sort what so ever. I said in ever post on the reddit, Every post here and, at the start of the post you’re replying to right now. I dont think i can be any more clear on that.
Everything in the post I made was in response to the argiments for the system Llama put forward. Not my support or what I’m going to be doing.

And to your comments about the 98% read the rest of the post. It covers that too.
In fact id highly just recommend the entire paragraph/full sentence each of your quotes is pulled from. Given the answer is either right before or right after.

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Ok well, if your conclusion is “I don’t want trade” and your premise is “I don’t like trade” there’s nothing I can or want to do for you. Many people want trade and they deserve to have their voices heard just like those who want to avoid trade, so if a system that lets you play without trade while others get to play the game they want isn’t for you then, I guess this game isn’t for you.

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If it makes you feel any better, that’s what I thought you meant. That’s why I was saying CoF was what I thought you were looking for. You can play as though trade doesn’t exist and still be efficient.

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I do guess I am and will be able to still trade if I want, even though I do choose to play all on my own, right? But it will only be possible if I choose to go the Merchant´s Guild?
How things will be in pure Solo Mode I´m not sure of…

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You will only be able to trade if you choose the Merchant’s Guild, though if you do you’ll be able to use the Bazaar to trade without needing to message or meet up with anyone else.

If you create a Solo character then choosing the MG would be, rather counterintuitive as you wouldn’t be able to tradeal as Solo.

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I had to re-read your posts a couple times to figure out what you’ve been trying to say. If you don’t mind, I’d like to restate it and you can tell me if I’ve got it correct or not.

You seem to want an experience where you will be able to party up with random people online and play multiplayer, beyond just a small playgroup that has agreed to all play MG or CoF together in advance. You also seem to think that MG will be much stronger than CoF. You do not want to play MG yourself.

There are obviously strong disadvantages to being a CoF player in an MG party. The MG players will get less loot so they are less likely to find things you can use, and you can’t give them items at all because your drops all have a CoF requirement.

It sounds like your concern is that the power of MG will attract a significant majority of the player base, and because parties of mixed factions are inherently weaker the CoF players will end up ostracized from the multiplayer community. Therefore you would feel forced to play MG yourself even though you don’t want to use the Bazaar just because CoF players will have a much smaller player base for multiplayer.

So your concern is that just the fact that MG exists is going to undermine the multiplayer community that you were hoping to be a part of. Do I have that that correct?

If I do, then I think that is kind of fair. I’ve already stated in my own posts that I don’t think it’s possible to balance the two and MG will end up being stronger. While many people have said something to the effect of “I don’t care how strong the two are as long as CoF feels good to play” because they want to play totally solo, for people who do want to play multiplayer the size of each group is actually pretty significant.

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I kind of thought this was the case and addressed it in a previous comment but based on the response this apparently wasn’t what they meant because I guess I don’t understand what they’ve ‘said at least 6 times’ and I was recommended ‘the entire paragraph/full sentence each of’ their quotes was pulled from.

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For most part yes. Masterfully stated and summarized. I like the game and the devs alot so I’ll still be here playing the game regardless of how this faction experiment goes.
Its just from what I’ve scene these two game mode systems all follow the same path.
1 start off ok and even
2 one side begins to overtake then holds the majority
3 ‘we’re discounting X content’ or ‘X content will now be single player only’
And I’m with you even with the crazy talent on the dev team I can’t see how they make this balanceing act work.
I dont want trade becasue I dont want to be one of 15 people in the CoF faction huffing the copium that the next update will some how manage to defeat/Tame the true immortal king the MG faction.

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My man… You do understand that some human beings enjoy playing games with other human beings just for its own sake, right? Why does every aspect of a game need to be evaluated through the lens of “What mathematical benefit does it give me?”

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If it makes you feel any better, this is actually a much easier problem to solve. If CoF players are having a hard time finding groups in a mostly MG multiplayer community, they could give CoF benefits to party play. They would just have to quantify how much less a MG group gains from adding a CoF to the party rather than another MG, and then include “MG players in your party gain X” to the CoF percs to balance it.

They absolutely shouldn’t do this to start. We’d need to see what the player distributions end up being, where the balance between the two factions ends up, and if any sort of ostracization ends up happening. If the game does end up going down that path and they can’t fix it within the balance between the factions then this could be sort of a panic button.

It’s also worth noting that MG players don’t actually gain much more from MG party members than they would from CoF party members. It’s not like if you party with an MG player they’re just going to give you any good drops they can’t use, they’re probably going to want to sell those themselves. It’s very possible that we end up in a situation where MG players don’t really care who they party with because the real benefit they gain is improved clear speed, while the CoF players are the ones who are encouraged to ostracize MG players. After all, having an MG in the party means they will get less drops but also want to keep everything they find because they gain value from selling it while a CoF party member doesn’t have any reason to keep their rare drops so would be more prone to gifting items to their allies.

If anything it seems likely that the most toxic environment would be one where CoF is dominant and MG players are ostracized. I don’t think this is likely, but if they really over tune prophesies beyond what they are saying here I guess it’s technically possible. It would also break the game’s progression structure if they went that far, so I doubt they would leave it at that level even if it happened.

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My man you do realize this is an ARPG where every decesion we make is avout what mathematical benefit does this give me even if its a single %

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I think you would enjoy Last Epoch (and video games in general) a lot more if you didn’t think about everything in terms of efficiency. Video games are meant to be fun.

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I disagree with this in principle as it depends on the figures used. If MG was “priced” such that the average player only got enough favour to use it once a week while CoF had prophecies that enabled the player to hunt specific uniques (with or without LP, whatever), I’d imagine that people would probably say that CoF was significantly stronger than MG. I agree that it is probably going to be very difficult to attain a reasonable balance where the two are comparable especially given players different play styles, but the devs can continue to tweak the relative costs & benefits as much as they want.

Also, don’t forget, he appears to believe that the factions are sentient or something & are competing with each other for players for … some reason? Are they actually chaos gods from Warhammer (fantasy or 40k, take your pick)?

If he thinks that CoF will, and can only ever be, significantly weaker than MG, that’s entirely up to him, but that’s not the devs want & they’ll tweak things to attempt to achieve their desired aim (whether it’s actually possible to achieve is an entirely different cup of tea).

Or, he’s actually a deep-XXX plant & wants the devs to buf the #### out of CoF so that can be uber strong or something. I have no idea at this point. But there are going to be plenty (of MP players) playing CoF 'cause they don’t like trade & lower drop rates.

Apparently they’re doing it wrong.

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I’ve already made a bunch of posts about this so I don’t want to rehash it too much, but the TLDR is that they have already created constraints within this announcement that make this basically impossible.

They’ve already said that CoF will be worse farming than we have now until higher ranks, which means no powerful target farming until we reach that point. Since ranks are planned to take longer to max out than level that means that for the core progression we’re at parity or worse than our current farming. We also know that guilds don’t show up until post-game and MG has a lower farm rate than the current game. This means that base drop rates will need to be lowered to the MG level, but cannot be lowered too much because the campaign still needs to be functional without affiliating with either guild.

On the other hand MG gets access to buying uniques at rank 4. At this point they can get build defining items like uniques and idols deterministically. Even if their drop rates are half of CoF drop rates they’re still way better off at this point.

Restricting Favor too much just means that MG becomes a Favor grind rather than a wealth grind, which will be extremely unsatisfying and push all the trade players away again. If you’re only buying one item a week then the whole MG faction is functionally DoA, and they’ve just wasted a bunch of time designing these systems for no reason. I think it’s a good mechanic for preventing high powered players from flooding the market with lower tier gear, but if it is locking out progression (I can afford to buy the item I want but I’ll need to grind 4 more hours to get enough favor to make the purchase) it will feel really really bad and the trade players won’t stick around.

There’s not a wide enough range between “slightly worse than now” and the baseline that would make the campaign functional to make the gap in gear acquisition between CoF and MG big enough to compensate for the power of MG’s deterministic gear acquisition. It could balance out after both characters hit the lv 100+ point where they have maxed their factions, but only reaching parity well after your build should already have come together is not a good place to be.

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I feel like we’re reading different posts @Voctor

A few ranks, in a system with 10 ranks, is probably 2-4 ranks.

Its been stated we gain access to a faction some time in the campaign.

The campaign finishes at approximately level 50.

So, I’d be very surprised if CoF don’t reach equivalence with current drop rates by somewhere in standard monoliths; with positive gains on current drop rates by the time we reach empowered monoliths (where most people would farm now anyway).

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I’m going by this post because it had a bit more detail on relative drop rates and progression rates of the two factions.

Not sure how that can be reconciled with the Trasochi quote, because one would seem to indicate that your first few levels of CoF will be lower than now while the other says that you’ll match current rates at that point.

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My statement is directly extrapolated from trasochi’s.

Edit: I would like to note that attempting to nail down details like which rank things become roughly equivalent to now is a bit of a fool’s errand. I’m sure our initial numbers won’t survive first contact with testing.

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