Exactly.
Post covers this btw.
The post explains that you can do both.
No reason not to get resistances on everyone.
If max hp & some resists is also viable, why did you say that every class’ goal is to cap resists?
If you accept that the post I linked to was reasonable (if not an exhaustive mathematical modelling of whether hp was an optimal strategy) then it’s a valid path to get max hp from gear & then get what resists you can elsewhere. Which is not what you said above.
You cap resistances and all capped stats from wherever you can, then all HP, all classes.
You build hp on every suffix, period.
If you use your siffixes to build prots, then you are making a mistake, as you will lose the slots for HP. Its not that hard to understand. Prefixes dont take HP slots.
I read Lizards main post to say exactly that. Every characters goal is to cap resistances and then stack as much hp as they can (though he adds in other defense layers like dodge and amor at their easy to reach sweet spots).
Some characters can get away with being a full glass cannon and don’t get affected by the defense changes at all (e.g. bone curse lich).
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But that’s not what I suggested. I suggested that you could do it the other way round, fill out your defensive affix slots with hp then get resists/dodge/etc where you can.
Possible, and potentially could give similar EHP. I think it’s tangential enough that Lizard’s points stand.
Whats easier to do end game LLama?
Cap all prots.
Go from 1000 base hp to 2000 HP
The order is there cuz one is EASIER than the other, not better. And you can always do both.
Why the fuck are we arguing about this, end of the day, u go for prots and HP for everyone lamao
Yeah, maybe they should tweak things so that capped resists is the wasy way but health is the “better” way? Then there would be another alternative.
Edit: Not sure how, obviously… Maybe increase the value on the t5 (or t6/7) health (flat & %) affixes.
It’d be nice if there were multiple similarly viable ways that each have end game chase-worthy gear.
I dont think you understand what im talking about, the result build and tankiness would be the same, regardless of order.
1+1+2=4
2+1+1=4
Everyone aims for the 4.
The enitre post is askign for HP buff, so its the better xd
dude this is in the post xd
I do understand what you mean, but I’m suggesting that while capping resists then health is easier, that capping health then getting what resists you can could be the “better” option. A, 2+1+2 = 5 option, if you will…
So, after playing a fair bith with the new system, i do also have some concern.
Generally i do like the new system, it is indeed more accessable for new player and much more intuitive. That’s fine.
My main concern with the new system is, that character progression and “end-game goals” are way to low/easy to reach.
I am ok if the majority of the game is balanced around a progression goal that is easy to reach. As long as we will have enough high level endgame(we hopefully will get more in the future)
But i do want to have more “hard to reach goals” in term of character progression/itemization.
As OP mentioned, exalted items feel like no real upgrade, even if they are on a decent base with decent stats, they just don’t feel exciting at all.
I really like that LE is so approachable but complex at the same time.
The new resistance system made LE even more approachable, but it really feels like a “to casual” game, with being able to reach all those defense goals so easily.
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First of I want to say that this is a great (and well educated - blink 
) post. Well done.
Everytime you give this kind of feedback (also followed some of the podcasts you took part) I struggle a bit to classify your point of view. You have an awesome amount of in depth knowledge and game experience. So almost everything you say makes sense and you make some very good points - from your point if view.
The thing is that I personally won’t be affected by a lot of your concerns in the near future, due to a massive difference in playtime.
Gearing is a process that can be judged differently by a wide player base. One example is when you say that people could achieve certain goals within “a weekend”. Well, for some it’s a weekend, playing 20 hours from friday till sunday. Others have the same amount of playtime distributed over 3 weekends.
The point, where a game becomes boring because you reached the end nay be after 100 hours of playtime. For you this is 8 days, others will be engaged over about 1-2 months.
I don’t have the same “red alert” feeling, like you seem to have. But there’s a lot of concerns on the forum these days that the difficulty and gearing process is too easy.
Since I played the new system on ssf characters on the CT build and now live I have to say that I never enjoyed LE that much like I do today. In the other side you raise some points that are absolutely valid, that I just haven’t realised by now, but that are obvious the moment I read about them.
Here are some thoughts about defensive identities:
- Ward is a great defensive mechanic for Spellblade right now. This fits the theme imho. Haven’t tried Acolyte low life, yet, but would like to see it being viable again like it was before 0.7.9
- Ward could also be a niche defence for other classes, but this should only be viable for specific builds, maybe also only with specific build enabling items
- Block should be an exclusive tank mechanic. Atm you get a lot of mitigation from just a good shield on every class.
- Dodge should be a class specific defense that is not accessible for everybody
Maybe make dodge way less impactful in general but give specific classes or builds a boost. The goal would be to make dodge not the op leveling mechanic for every build that Carrie’s on into endgame. Make it that it’s a waste to build on a Sentinel but the main defence for a rogue and a mediocre defense for mage and acolyte
How?
Make defensive mechanics compete with each other
- Make the dodge % scale less with dodge rating the higher your armour rating is
- Make dodge have a cooldown if you have blocked a hit recently and vice versa
- Reduce crit avoidance values in general, but give it a bonus on high dodge rating
- Reduce reduced damage in crit values in general, but give it a bonus on high armour rating
- Make set resistance affixes class specific so not every class can use all affixes
- Reduce defensive values so that a specific gear goal can only be reached with exalted items
- Imbalance the defensive values so it’s not possible to max all resistances (or make it really hard)
- Make it impossible for certain classes to max certain resistances so you need to decide what stats to max and where to be more vulnerable (or even it out). Every class could per se have a weakness against a specific type
- Implement a permanent debuffs (as with the blessings) where you have to choose a specific element to be vulnerable against
- Make very impactful affixes that as a downside reduce the resistance against another element - for example "-20% damage taken from dots, but + 10% damage taken from hits
In general I’d like to see that classes gear differently. Currently it seems that everybody is just maxing everything because it’s possible. Let there be tradeoffs like we have on other aspects, too.
Although I think the current system is a very solid foundation. The transition went very smooth, imho.
Cheers! 
6 Likes
@XLVI_carpo You do like to make things harder! 
I’m hoping at some point they will introduce different starting difficulties other than what we have now. Something similar to other ARPGs so would be like:
Easy mode - Start off with +25%
Normal - Same as what we have now.
Expert - -25%
Hard - we already have that with Masochist
Hell - -75%
Insane - -100% (for those that like a little challenge)
Obviously there would be other stat differences, but this topics about defence!
1 Like
I agree with this generally.
I very much liked the idea of affix tiers 6+ adding bonus effects. Resist affix’s at 6+ adding max res. Maybe Armour 6+ could add some flat DR. Dodge 6+ could add GB.
I like that resists can be capped. The changed from protections to resists did leave some things behind in the move though. Sentinel lost a bit of its identity as the very high protection class.
Maybe at this point, there should be some written defined roles that each class plays that are unique. Each base class should have an overarching role and each mastery should have a specialized role. These should be documented so that they can be easily referenced when changes happen to insure that the classes stay within the roles after major game changes.
As a basic example, Sentinel is the shield class. Overall, they should be about blocking and effects based on blocking. From there, Forge Guard could be about retaliation. VK obviously about Void conversion, although don’t ask me how to relate that to blocking/equipped shield. Paladin could take the heal on block and stay on the holy side, buffs and magical shields.
Once classes and masteries are well defined, it should be easy for them to keep their “personality” after major changes.
Maybe there should be a real look at defining what each class of items really should be doing as well. Uniques should change something about the game to create a new way to play (changing a skill to be ranged instead of melee). Sets should augment heavily existing builds (like werebear), Rares (and blues by extention) should be general gear that fills out basic stats (defensive, offensive, and attributes).
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For 7.10, this is lost.
Now, every class has the same goals:
- Reach 75% all resistances (just like old glancing blow, but more taxing). Some classes have it easier than others do, but their goal is the same.
Capping 75% all resistances is extremely easy to do.- Get dodge and armour. If you can get from skills/passive, better.
Both stats have caps and really heavy diminishing returns, so you aim for the optimal value and call it a day.- Cap Critical Avoidance.
- Drop everything else into gearing HP.
I kind of want to jump in on this one. Here’s my understanding of all the affixes mentioned above:
- Resistances: set resistance in prefix, elemental/single resistances in suffix
- Dodge: % increase in prefix, + increase in suffix
- Armor: % increase in prefix, + increase in suffix
- Crit avoidance: suffix
- HP: suffix
“Now every class has the same goals”: isn’t this just a matter of lost opportunity costs + set bonuses? Set bonuses for non-elemental is more efficient than single non-elemental resistances. Elemental protection in the suffix slot is also efficient as it covers 3 resistances. On top of being able to build other defenses away from the prefix slot that the set resistances take up.
Prefix: Set void/physical resistance, set necrotic/poison resistance, % dodge, % armor
Suffix: Non-set elemental resistance, +dodge, +armor, crit avoidance, +health, %health, hybrid health
Spend 10 prefix slots on set resistances (non-elemental) and spend 5-6 suffixes on elemental resistance. That’s assuming no passives increasing resistances, which would lower your investment into gearing for resistances. That leaves you with 4-5 prefix slots to play with % dodge and % armor or other offensive stats (non-weapon prefix slots including shield). I think most class passives have some form of resistances you can build into so that number may be higher.
Then you get to invest in whatever dodge, armor, crit avoidance, and hp into the suffix slots. This creates a scenario where you can mix and match resistances with other defenses. Armor and dodge don’t scale and have diminishing returns so the investment there will be up to a point where it’s the most efficient. Crit avoidance is hardcapped at 100%. That goes to your point of investing everything else into HP once you reach the hard/soft caps on other defenses.
- Resistances are capped at 75%
- Crit avoidance capped at 100%
- Armor with diminishing returns
- Dodge with diminishing returns
- HP with a linear increase (as to whether it’s linear in effective HP, I’m not sure but I can hazard a guess it’s not linear). However, whether EHP is linear or not, the value itself can increase without any hard or soft cap until you have no slots to invest in further.
Maybe explore having all the defensive affixes compete with each other for either the prefix slots or the suffix slots? You’re forced to choose to focus on a set number of defenses (resistance + HP? Dodge + HP?) This eliminates the current scenario where non-elemental resistances don’t compete with other defensive affixes (for the most part). You have 9-10 items (minus weapon, possibly include shield) so 18-20 prefix slots to work your defensive stats. If you invest heavily in one area then you lack in another. This forces you to pick and choose depending on how it may synergize with defensive options your class passives and skills provide.
I also personally think crit avoidance isn’t very satisfactory. It sort of feels like the old GB where you go for 100% and you’re done. Almost mandatory, although not at the level GB was at.
- Have resistances act as the standard damage reduction stat. Have critical hits “pierce” resistances, dealing true damage (non-crit portion of the damage gets the standard reduction from resistance, crit portion of the damage does not get reduced). Resistances would work best against standard hits and DOTs. Make it difficult to reach the resistance cap.
- Have armor act as is right now. However, have it reduce critical hits more effectively. Opposite of resistances. Armor would work best against critical hits and serve as a damage reduction tool across all elements.
- Have dodge act as is right now.
The above presents clear playstyle differences that can be carried by classes, masteries, and builds. For example under the system proposed above, Forge Guards in general would do well mitigating against spikes in incoming damage (but not so hot against DOTs) whereas Shamans would do well against consistent damage (but not so hot against damage spikes). Beastmasters would do well with a dodge build, Death Seal Lich would do well with stacking HP and Spellblades would do well with ward. Build identity can incorporate defensive tools instead of focusing too much on the offensive tools available.
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75% is not the cap for resistances. Enemies at end game will have 75% penetration starting at area level 75. So to be truly capped on resists you would need 150% to each one, which is NOT easy to do at all.
This is wrong. Going 150% will do nothing. 115% is true cap if you count 20 shreds on you. You cannot bypass the monster penetration no matter how much you overcap.
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Like @FoE mentioned on his reply, this is not how it works.
Having 75% or more portections in any area level superior to level 75 equals 0% true resistance. If you have 0% resistances in a level 75+ area you will take 75% more damage.
Overcap only protects vs the really rare protection shred of some enemies and does nothing vs their base penetration.
Only some end game rare enemies have protection shred, and those currently one shot you no matter what (as shown in the clips, those enemies dont even have shred)
There is not a universe where u can take 20 stacks of shred in end game and not die.
Realistically you will take only a few.
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