Not really. If you have a ceiling you lose the ability to check for the most egregious outliers.
If you assume a ceiling of 1k and you have a build that can do 1.2k now, it will be capped at 1k. If you have a build that can do 10k, it will be capped at 1k as well. You don’t have a way to find out that the 10k is obviously super broken and needs to be super-nerfed.
I view corruption as simply a new game+. You finished the game (meaning, you achieved whatever goals you had) and instead of leaving the game and returning in 3 months, you can keep pushing, if you feel like it.
It’s not mandatory, it doesn’t really give you much more, it’s just something to do if you want to keep min-maxing.
Corruption would make sense as a NG+ if there was enough of a game up until that . You can finish the whole story and monoliths within what, 8 hours of braindead playtime for a semi-experienced player? That in the context where "the game starts at corruption difficulty " sprayed all over here.
Diablo 3 made infinite scaling work because with how sets and uber items were designed to work, there was enough of a power spike and adrenaline rush that you felt accomplished and had that itch to see how far it could push you after completing that set for the 10000x power spike and then getting it with perfect rolls too.
We got none of that here , again it’s about well defined boundaries within which you can see your efforts reflected. 99% of players are not Raxxes that farm the game for stream content or out of a natural obsession to find broken builds, these are natural born quality testers but not players. If the boundary is 0-infinite, it makes all your efforts feel null against the threat that the upper 1k unofficial ceiling can always go higher and there’s nothing special separating where you’re at , from the rest.
You can easely nerf overpowered combos if they smack end content within seconds. You just tone it down and don’t care about the 10k since you want it to feel good and challenging at 1k. You can bother with it at 10k when you raise it up to that.
A perfect example of how currently trying to balance around infinite scaling is terrible is the WraithLord helmet, an item clearly designed to push higher than any build before could. But what it does it nulifies anything before it, why would anyone pick any other minion build when a simple helmet makes you a minion that does 100x more damage ? It throws out the window any balance because it’s designed to test how far it can push high corruption with no concern for below 500corruption at least.
Because it is fun to play any other minion builds that is not meta and make it somehow working? Is it that hard to understand that some people just like playing “so cold meme” builds and having pure fun with it? Whats the difference if I make it to 700cc than to 1000cc or even 3000cc. Is it that fun just opening boss-loot-boxes, ignoring most mobs and bosses mechanics? You call it fun? For who?
Just my 2 cents
Wha?
How so?
Let’s take it as a boss… Build 1 is ‘normal’ and needs 2 minutes to kill the boss. All fine.
Build 2 takes 3 seconds… kinda visible, wouldn’t you think?
That’s bollocks plainly spoken. Distinct top-end content can showcase egregious outliers even better since the line is precise and not a washed out mess.
Also… if you got a 10k build and it doesn’t perform substantially better in the 1k content then it’s not a outlier anymore. The extra possible scaling above showcasing it is what causes the problem in the end.
With a distinct end-line of guided content this doesn’t happen and hence doesn’t warrant major changes. In the current it does.
Perception is always key. Have something broken and it does nothing since no mechanic supports the broken part and it’s not a problem. Have a mechanic playing off of it… then it it obviously.
I’m fully with you there!
But then we got a major issue with how progression in LE works currently. We got Campaign → Monolith → Empowered Monolith → Aberroth → Uber Aberroth.
That’s the ‘Core’ progression line. If a player wants to ‘finish the game’ content-wise then Uberroth is there, right in the way. Not a side-boss, not a nice gimmick… nono… just shoved right in the middle of the road.
So they wanna kill it.
And now you gotta decide… play the fun meme build which feels amazing? Or… play the one which is far less fun but allows you to reach that personally set goal?
Not quite. Corruption levels are part of the progression. It’s more:
Campaign → Monolith → Empowered Monolith to 300c → Aberroth → 600c (since that’s the first soft cap) → 1000c (since that’s the last, and more brutal, soft cap). Uby sits either between the 600c/1000c steps or is after that.
Nobody cares about arbitrary numbers unless the arbitrary number itself has a meaning. The road to Aberroth is included obviously, but part of empowered monoliths as the corruption increases are the core part of that.
Beyond Uberroth non-stop discussions happen… and the caps are also not showcased. So that’s not a viable metric to use.
Much like the 300c ‘character is good’ metric was always a mess for that exact same reason. I did mention generally that EHG needs to provide a clear-cut showcase, didn’t I?
They do, though. 600c is when the optimal progression of corruption bonuses peak. You get diminishing returns after that. And 1000c is when that progression basically stops.
Soft caps are always important for progression. Whether it’s in a skill level, a stat or an area level (which is what corruption equates to).
And this is written where in-game?
And the ‘optimal’ point has which meaning for which content beyond?
What’s the distinct line to achieve?
And yes, I agree for someone playing in-depth and optimizing stuff that soft-caps are really important, 100% agreed there… but not for the average joe, that’s game-design bits which needs to be handled to make them nonetheless feel it. It can be inside a character progression sheet… but not for content which has nothing beyond. 600c is beyond the Uberroth unlock, so nothing is there plainly spoken.
Sure but with minions I will never kill this boss. Skeletons struggle even with Julra T4 thanks to welll… reasons. But should I abandon my minion army because of this if I am having fun? Do anybody cares for my struggling to push far than 700cc minion army? I dont think so
Dunno? Which is more important for you? The direct playing of the minion build? Or reaching a specific goal?
There’s those and there’s the others. Neither side is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ and a well developed game does take into consideration both sides.
That’s why I’m always a bit surprised by how vehemently those discussions are held… because both sides want ultimately the same. Namely: A game which feels nice in progression and where they can get their viably expected way of enjoyment from it.
They’re not camps oposite of each other and impossible to please both… just… different approaches to the exact same aspect.
So my return question is: How much content beyond the ability of Minions can viably exist before you start to think ‘Well… I can’t do anything good with those, the build just sucks’? Because it’s a spectrum and hence sooner or later it happens… otherwise why play in end-game and not dimple around in level 50 areas in the campaign? Your build is working there too after all.
Well i really dont know. I just play this skeletons till I get bored. I have sh load of items so I test versions. There are also sets now, so even more testing. If I will be able to farm comfortably 700cc without dying and kill speed will be decent I will say this build is finished. Just cant push farther without changing the hole concept like cold dmg theme etc
The harder part is knowing that my two previous Forge Guards are just absolutely crashing this 700cc… so I know what I am “missing” playing skele minion build… but for me that is ok, I dont care about competition and shit… so? What would be the final thought? Well will I play LE till I test everything I wanted. Just like before with D2, GD jada jada… Thats just the way it is… for me in this so called arpg. [I prefere to call it diablo-clones].
Now include 3-4 mechanics at 1k corruption, make the entrance limited by similarly mechanical fights which simply demolish skeletons left and right without being able to summon them properly… and then we can talk again
Because for people who play for the goal of beating the bosses for example… or reaching the end of the progression line (formerly Abby, now Uberroth, perception wise) that’s what they already perceived. ‘I started this game, I really don’t suck… sure, I’m not the best player but also not a bad one… and still I got no chance to do that, that sucks!’ is the feeling behind it there.
So as said, I understand your position, but I also understand the one of those people for which the success is mandatory to derive the enjoyment from it. Some only play a single character or archtype… others want to finish first and then branch out… but no matter what it is, if you’re hindered in achieving your goal then enjoyment… wanes. And that’s just not necessary to happen with proper design I personally think.
I also understand people who wants to enjoy all the content. For now I just switch to my two FG and I can beat crap out of Abby, maybe try uberAbby… but I am not that type of player. I don’t like bossing in LE. I like braking the game but outgearing it. It is not possible for LE because of infinite scalling. But well… for 1000cc is sometimes possible, so sometimes I can do that as well.
Next patch they will buff minions, so I will be crushing content just like with FG now… so, I don’t mind waiting, I have all time in my life to wait
Overall I just don’t get why people get so dramatic over a video game, you know In the first period of 90th I didn’t even have PC, so what’s the big deal about game not beeing well balanced over the masteries? Come on! It’s just a vgame Good luck & have fun!
Oh, I can fully understand why people make a big deal out of it. For many it’s the only reliable way to get some ‘off time’ from stressful things, be it work, family or whatever else, a time to simply enjoy themselves.
So if that instead frustrates them… well… kinda clear why people get pissed.
Not to speak that nowadays the amount of buying power has sunk compared to the 90’s substantially. A 40 Dollar game back then was a lot… but not really much in the grand scheme of things. Now? For many their whole monthly budget that’s free outside of expenses. And for others… behind and still using that 40 to try and get some time away from problems, hoping for 200+ hours if entertainment since that’s how long it’ll take them to get the money again to afford the next.
And that’s not speaking of those people - like me - which make it their core hobby simply, something they’re heavily invested in. And with high emotional investment you get… well… emotional after all
A lot of it is just a side effect of internet and social media.
Simply put, make a thoughtful, balanced post, you get ignored. Go as far as possible, in any direction, hyperbole as much as possible, push things more and more, and people react, reply to you, repost your stuff. The more extreme the language, the more views.
As a result, people get more extreme in all areas. The loudest and most extreme politicians get elected, everywhere, by shouting complete nonsense, but shouting it very loud. The most hard-line branches of each religion get more followers. Any subject becomes life-or-death. The same goes for video games.
This is actually quite scary, but that’s how the world goes these days. Hopefully this is just a dark phase.
This is commandlingly, critically, seriously, severely true.
Although that type of rhetoric does come with downsides, namely that it makes people less open to the ideas being exposed. Very often it will make them take the opposing view just as a knee jerk reaction.
different people have different levels of passion.
some people dont care about my little pony, but some people are obsessed to the point they would discuss the personalities of the ponies or even revere them.
the problem about not having balanced is simple. if the game is not balanced, players who dont play a certain way will feel like they’re being punished for being weak/playing the wrong build.
for example i love the idea of playing an acolyte that becomes a lich. embodying necrotic powers to cruelly vanquish my enemies in torment.
but currently sentinel is over performing by a huge amount. i feel dumb for not playing sentinel. i also feel sad that my acolyte despite my best efforts will not be able to perform as well as a sentinel. so what happens? either i reroll a sentinel, or just stick with it and suffer.
currently i took the third option. i just quit the game. i dont like having to follow build guides.
i can understand the allure of breaking the game. and to be honest it can be fun. but i m of the opinion that its the game devs responsibility to reduce or remove anything that breaks the game.
coming from poe, i see this all the time. players that want to succeed, they will use some meta builds. they can get to level 100 within a day or 2 which is significantly faster than most other players.
with this advantage they can quickly gain a trade advantage. the faster you can kill and the harder content you can clear rewards you with more gear and currency. you can buy what you need faster, and you can buy better gear faster than other players (since you have more currency rolling).
then you can also provide other services like boss carries or crafting.
the other players who arent playing meta will be eating dust and becoming currency farmers, farming up currency to buy stuff from other players (typically meta players).
the obvious solution that a player can adopt is just to go meta. and if everyone just plays meta. why bother having a skill tree? just make it a skill twig. might as well just remove all the underperfoming skills since everyones just gonna play the same few skills.
Tbf, you don’t have to follow a build guide. You can make your own sentinel without one.
And while sentinel as a whole is currently the top dog (especially pally and VK) there are other builds that are still strong, even when the class itself isn’t on the same level as them.
If you check the leaderboards, more than 50% of them are pally and VK, and yet none of those two are in the top 10.
Balance is tricky. The biggest problem is that you have a few people trying to change the game without breaking it vs thousands of people trying to break it. So players will always find a way to break the game from sheer numbers alone. They just brute force it.
That being said, EHG is trying to fix balance. They’re working on a couple masteries per season. Sentinel is currently top dog because it was the latest to be fixed. Necro and Lich will likely be top dog next season.
It took PoE several years to get balance under control. I expect it will still take EHG about 2 years, at least, until balance is in a good spot.
Yes, but to be fair, that will always happen. PoE has decent balance now where almost all builds can do almost all content. Meta is just a bit more efficient. But you can still do that content with off meta builds. And that is good enough for the majority of players.
If your build isn’t as efficient but is still good enough to do most content, you can still farm to your heart’s desire and accumulate currency easily.
I’m playing a blight of contagion build, barely have time to play, still only entering red maps and yet I’ve had 5 div drops already (3 from a merc during campaign, which feels silly). That allowed me to buy decent gear to keep mapping without issues.
I don’t feel left out because I didn’t make RF, slam or whatever jungroan is breaking the game with.
And with the currency I’m farming with this character, I can equip one more ST focused for bossing if I want.
I think the main difference is: can you still do all content even with off-meta? And for the most part, the answer is yes on PoE.
And if you don’t consider Uby, it’s also true in LE. Uby is currently the only content that requires meta or cheese builds.
