Especially Sentinel was one of the worst classes to play in terms of mana sustain imho. The recent implementation of the “gain mana on use of…” solved this. And I really like this.
I’d hope that mana issues on certain classes will be solved by implementing similar mechanics. A general improvement of mana reg is boring imho, although I don’t know what other aspects your “rework suggestion” might contain. I’m curious.
I agree with nearly everything OP said. However I think Time and Faith is too strong and would prefer it to be 5 mana per use instead of 10, since you can further improve that with the class suffixes if needed. With high attack speed this node provides way more mana regeneration than it should for how easy it is to access.
Additionally, I think Tempest Strike is in a terrible spot for mana gain in that it doesn’t really fit its own theme to incentivise NOT procing its spells. I’ve written up an entire post on that here The current method of gaining mana when using Tempest Strike feels bad
What I’d love to see is varied and unique identities for each class on how they approach mana. Acolyte uses hp for spells, mage has focus/mana strike, sentinel I guess uses time and faith. I’d love primalist to get access to some base mana regeneration so they can stack increased mana regeneration to better effect.
I agree, i havn’t talked about specific things are not balanced and stuff, but yeah there are some things.
I think the better route would be to “nerf” it with the change it being “Mana gained on hit”, rather than “on use”. Numbers could be also decreases by a bit and it woudl still be very strong.
Mana is now good, and that’s why we can get more creative ways to use mana or manage mana, because it have very good infrastructure to build around
Yeah, but then you have Focus. From the wording on Desperate Meditation - “Each point of negative mana counts as missing an addional point of mana. For example, with 1 point invested, if you have 10 maximum mana and are at -10 mana then this node will increase mana regen by 20%.”
So if you have 400 mana & are at zero, you get 400% mana regen (on top of the base 300%) per point in that one node, 4 points would take you up to 1,600% regen + 300% = 1,900% regen per sec = 190 allowing you to regen to full in 2s, which is probably half as fast as with Rive/Vengenace? So yeah, maybe halving Time & Faith would be reasonable.
Yes, this has been a bit of a train of thought.
Here you go. Just posted it! A suggestion regarding Mana, Mana Regen, and Diversity for High-Cost Builds
Being forced to use skills like Vengeance, Tempest Strike, and Focus to regen mana, and not have to hit anything, is very clunky, and in itself is actually VERY trivializing for mana regen. I don’t hate it, but I don’t love it.
Passive mana regen built into skills like Tornado or Warpath, or a skill that gives mana on hit, like Mana Strike flow much better, and make a lot more sense.
Why not have mana leech, so mana heavy builds can regen more naturally? Or on healing totems, maybe add a mana regen node. edit*
With mana leech, you can make it mutually exclusive with life leech per item. You can add a little per skill in the skill passives; especially on high mp cost spells like meteor or avalanche. You say “golly gosh no. Mana leech never” but you actually like having to use a skill that has nothing to do with your build? Let’s not even add in that the Sentinel Vengeance Smite node gives you mana AND hp on a NON hit! How is this LESS imbalanced than mana leech?
For bear form you have nodes that keep you at full mana 100% of the time! With high damage and tankiness, and 100% crit BUILT RIGHT IN! How is this less imbalanced than mana leech? Also I’d like to point out that mana leech affixes could be limited by the different types of gear: say, relic (obvious choice), weapon, and caster offhand.
Sorcerer passives have so many of the same effect, why not give passive mana regen in the passive tree or mastery class?
I think it’s imbalanced in that a few skills and specs keep you at full mana perpetually, while others struggle.
Ie: almost every single acolyte build so far. Using your hp as a casting cost is awesome…but why then give SOO much leech?
I was using Urzil’s Pride on my auto cast shaman. With my gear and Storm Totem out I had over 2200 lightning resist…but only 18 mana regen. The bonus on the armor is so low, it’s almost negligible. I dropped the armor and lightning prot gear, and was at 15 mana per tick…it didn’t make a difference, the rest of my mana regen coming from affixed and Tornado was sufficient enough to get by…but it could be better.
I refuse to swap out a skill for something as gimmicky as Tempest Strike. It’s a crutch and bandage; not a system that shines.
On another character I was doing, following Boardman21’s plague pally…was literally spam 4 devouring orbs, hit abyssal echoes, hit vengeance 5 times at the air, and repeat. It’s tedium. It disrupts the flow of combat. Sure, it works, and it’s what we have, but it’s nothing to praise.
Let’s add more mana regen onto caster uniques. I can think of 2…Urzil’s Pride, and the lightning wand…but the wand comes at a price.
The spriggan form belt is an example of a well balanced mana regen tool, for a build that needed it badly.
All of this being said, I don’t necessarily want to see mana leech introduced to the game, rather, I’d prefer to see more, bigger, passive ways to regenerate it across the classes, and not be forced to take a skill for it.
Make the methods of mana regen fit the build; not be forced into it.
It’s not a strong word. It’s literal for most builds.
It sure would be nice to take a buff spell, in place of a mana regen skill. Maybe add some mana regen to Fire Shield? It needs some love. It doesn’t have nearly as many passives as other skills.
AS i outlined, i do like alot of the more creative ways to regenerate mana. and i do like htat you have to think about what you want to do with mana regen and you possibly need to sacrifice a skill slot or several affixes on gear.
Mana Leech would have so much power creep or balancing issues coming with it.
Basically every or almost every build will go for it, because you could regen mana by just doing damage with the best skill possible.
I already mentioned that that should be nerfed^^
I do agree, IF there is a class that should get inherently easier support for mana regen it’s probably sorc. Not so much that it’s suffiecient to just spend passive points, but at least some mana regen a little bit better than comparable nodes in the shaman tree(i think shaman has the best support for pure mana regen atm, but it’s still not enough to me impactfull)
Using Health as some ressource is a totally different discussion, but is already waaaaaaaay mroe balanced than anything close to mana leech.
Agreed, while the base effect of that item is very nice, the numbers are very low. But making it stronger really is a balancing thing, it can get out of hand quickly.
Yeah, they could change that by requiring the skills to hit to regain the mana.
Just because you dislike the current implementation (not requiring a hit to get mana from Vengeance) doesn’t mean the alternative is good, or doesn’t have problems. And Smite does require a hit, though that is only 1 of the 3.
The problem with mana leech is that it’s dependant on damage, so high damage skills/builds will be able to regain mana with it much faster than lower damage builds/skills. It’s 1 step better than the current implementation of Time & Faith, but only 1 step since it requires a hit.
No Sorcerer passives have mana gain on crit.
Yeah, I think it’s a nice change & thematic for Marrow Shards & Transplant to use health, but if the Lich didn’t get so much leech then they’d be required to use Rip Blood to regain hp, would that not be as bad as requiring Focus on a Mage?
Or you could not take the Dark Moon node & not have the mana issues… Having the DO stationery isn’t a problem, especially when you need more of them on a boss.
I agree, how about you get more mana regen per skill you’ve used “recently”.
The problem with vengeance for instance is unfortunately deeper than just the mana regen.
It tackles the problem of diversity of builds or rather the illusion of diversity.
Out of curiosity I went to check all the sentinel builds on the compedium thread.
2 observations :
So 2 problems here :
Yeah, but most of them are made by ~2 people, plus you could easily swap Rive in for mana generation & higher dps than Vengeance, IMO the main problem is your next point
There aren’t enough interesting nodes on Vengeance to give us multiple different ways of using it. You go left to get the damage mitigation node & then up for attack speed &/or damage and more riposts to allow you to keep the damage mitigation up for longer.
I would argue that that’s for the damage mitigation bonus as much as it is for mana generation. I even included it on my Smite caster Paladin build even though I very rarely used it…
Agreed on that.
Coming back to the subject of mana, for the moment each class has pretty much its own way to deal with mana management. What is lacking now in the game is a feature that comes across all classes that would be less efficient than the class specific ones but still valuable enough to get rid of vengeance or rive and therefore free a skill socket for builds.
What was exposed in the other thread about this subject could be a partial solution, like linking mana regen to the mana pool value. Or add a “added mana regen” shard like there is for health.
I have played LE for just over 500 hours. I wasnt going to post again but ive realised this game overall isnt really for me and one of the main reasons is Mana in this game and just wanted to leave some last feedback about this mechanic in this game
Personally I cannot stand the way mana functions in this game and its stifling nature of forcing you to play ‘this’ exact way if you desire to actively spend mana to kill monsters. Note ive played basically every aRPG thats worth even playing from D1 to PoE to Van Helsing and they all manage them differently however at a point almost all of these games Mana becomes a chore that goes away it goes from becoming a major obstacle early game to something trivial end game because the game introduces new mechanics to deal with which usually pale in comparison to Mana regen - usually staying alive.
The game closest to Last Epoch is actually Diablo 3, its almost exactly the same in the way the game manages mana - no potions, no leech and a ‘base’ regen. Also D3 has unique ‘Resource’ mechanics per class and skills are separated into Movement/Buffs and Generators and Spenders. Spenders almost ALWAYS being much stronger than generators (unless niche case) but the classes have innate regen styles - Barb gets Rage when hit from memory, many mana gain on skill use cooldowns
However the fundamental difference is Diablo 3 gives you many many options to deal with it, to the point it can become trivial on some classes/setups etc it feels like a major obstacle to overcome but isnt rammed down your throat with barely anyway to combat it
Last Epoch to me feels like you are fighting Mana everywhere you go in the game and for a game that puts massive emphasis on Mana, the game seems to be against the player in every aspect.
First base Mana regen NEVER changes per level ups, what is it 10 mana? why does my Mage have 10 base mana and so does my Sentinel. Infact I just logged in to check every character of mine has 10 mana regen. My Spellblade technically has 8 mana regen if I use Ice Shield so actually the lowest of all classes. Theres no identity here at all
Mana regen affix on gear is largely a wasted affix. it rolls on Rings/Gloves and a Relic. T5 Mana regen is 14-17% if you get T5 Mana regen on both rings at 15/16% you go from 10>12>13 mana those numbers being 1 ring then 2 -this is nothing for such a huge investment.
Skills that cost no mana in this game are too strong in comparison. I made a Forge Guard a very long time ago (prior to Vengeance mana on use) and when I unlocked Forge Strike I could use it 3 times and be out of mana. I had no idea what to do and seen no reason to play this character so I logged them out at lvl 44 - just logged in that old character and Rives 3 hits do the same damage as 1 use of Forge Strike but costs nothing plus can proc ailments easier and can also allow me to use buffs without compromising my mana. Why would I ever use Forge Strike when I can just use Rive?
Ive looked at all my characters and all of them dont actively spend much mana OR they are just set to autocast spells on cooldown and I have enough to just sustain when they come off cooldown. All my damaging abilities are free or virtually free, attack speed is actually a great stat when you dont have to spend mana
I think using a skill to attack thin air to regain mana is awful gameplay and actually makes no sense to me. My favorite skill in this game is Warpath and its just unplayable now to how I want to play, I do not want to stop spinning to stab something to allow me to gain the ‘energy’ to spin more
I just found a video I recorded a year ago to showcase LE on a controller and im playing my old nerfed Holy Fire Paladin with 100% uptime of Warpath - I cant remember what nodes allowed 100% but im regaining mana while spinning - its obvious the game is designed to put pressure on you so you have to deal with extra things but im not really interested…I just want to kill hordes of monsters, some bosses, collect loot from their corpses and increase my level and actually enjoy doing it. I want the difficulty to be in the combat from monster mechanics/damage instead of managing a blue bar
Im not wanting the game to change as it seems people enjoy this style of mana management but its not for me
Nowhere near those hours or experience yet, measly 160h so far on 0.79f only, but I get your point already.
I have found that managing mana is quite tedious. When your focus changes from damage & defence to managing mana, things can get a little frustrating.
Normally, you build up your char… how much harder can I hit… oh crap, that fireball almost one shot me… how much more fire protection can I get… hey, I almost one shot that rare, need a better sword… oh crap, that poison spiders dot is killing me… how much poison def can I get… oh, hold on, this unique changes void to fire… how to change my gear / def to work… rinse & repeat.
I have found that running out of mana, while definitely happening in that cycle, seems to be much harder to resolve without considering fundamental changes to builds and playstyle… sometimes that can seem more like “work” than fun - especially when a game like LE has very limited solutions around mana. Repeat that once too many times and I could quite easily understand someone throwing their hands in the air and saying “had enough with this s##t”.
Take a break… give it time… 500h is more than enough on a Beta… come back fresh when they release it… 
Ive played on/off since August 2019. I primarily play PoE until I quit the league and play other games in the downtime.
See im used to crushing disappointment in PoE - exp loss, disconnections losing my map/area or worse losing a boss run that took hours to spawn, wasting much currency and achieving nothing out of it. So the crafting/death in monoliths/boss difficulty is absolutely fine. If I die to a boss its only 5-10 mins til I can try again, if I fracture gear ill just get more. But the mana…I just feel strangled and I just avoid many skills that exist because of this, and its not a way I want to play an aRPG
The thing I cant see to get my head around is to be running out of Mana is a fundamental issue with your build in aRPG in general (unless niche build spending all mana for a reason) and aRPGS to me are all about starting extremely weak and turning into some kind of god at the end of the cycle, doesnt mean you necessarily trivialize the game but certain aspects are just well and truly solved and dont need to be bothered with anymore (in my opinion)
Tempest Strike … I wish developers gave it more love. My experience with cold tempest melee Shaman build is … let’s say not great.
The issue as I see it is stems from the fact that the devs don’t want mana costing skills to be spammable. I actually like this philosophy. It leads to imbalance in classes when that isn’t a constant thought though. It seems bad when the free skills just seem better than the mana cost abilities. I don’t really want the free skills nerfed. I like Vengeance and Mana Strike. I think that maybe mana abilities could be better balanced between power and mana cost. I would still like the idea of having toggle on abilities that reserve mana.
I’d also like the different classes to have different ways of dealing with mana shortages. Maybe one class has mainly big DPS skills on cooldowns rather than spending mana, one gets mana back on hit (Sentinel with Vengeance/Rive/Smite & Time and Faith), another gets a big regen skill (Focus), etc. It can be used to change how the classes play & approach problems.