I have another suggestion for dungeons:
That way you will get rewarded for exploring the dungeons.
edit: You could easily replace “object” with “miniboss that drops an object” or something similar.
I don’t think we are on a good base level by any means. Dungeons are clunky to reach and get old after you did them once or twice. Dungeons are a slog and just another level to run down (besides killing more stuff in one of them) and I don’t think they are outstanding or offer something new.
If they put the bosses into MoF and sprinkle the dungeon mechanics into MoF maps it would be far better from my point of view.
Getting specific stuff in dugeons only while they are more combersome then fun (at least for me) is bad by design from my point of view. Yes specific dungeons should offer specific things but I don’t understand the artificial process they implemented when it comes to accessability of them.
LE is the first game where dungeons make me mad instead of happy ^^.
I doubt EHG can track this, but it would be great to see what percentage of players correctly use the dungeon ability against Julra’s explosion the first time. I see a lot of complaints about this, but I doubt players that expect that their dungeon ability will be useful on the boss are complaining.
If encountering a (rare) dungeon echo in MoF provides large increases to stability, it provides another choice we can make to progress the timelines (currently the main endgame content as dungeons are a side content at this point). Maybe tie # of monster kills to bonus stability like normal echoes and keep the dungeons at T1-T3, whereas the keys are still necessary for T4 but you still can do T1-T4 with it.
That being said, you can avoid it altogether as having the dungeon be an echo instead of inside one which moves the decision of whether to run one upfront instead of in the midst of clearing an echo.
This sounds like a simple and rather elegant solution. I like it.
oh that was a thing is what I asked after I was wiped out. I was told by chat after the fact cause I asked after the fact.
Hi, I justed wanted to add my two cents after recently diving more into the dungeons:
Positive
Negative
Nice video.
I’ve been taking a break for a little while, and picked back up again.
My worst fears from a couple of months ago seem to have been realised. I was a huge critic of the T4 Julra fight, and now it seems that all that has happened is that 2 new variants of the “exercise in futility” have appeared.
I’m not against making the hardest incarnation the hardest to do. It’s logical. However, yet again nothing seems to have been taken on board from the large amounts of critique in the forums here prior to my break.
Once again we have 1 shot mechanics, again we have the best way to do something is to “find the safe spot that shouldn’t really exist & exploit it”, again we have overlapping mechanics that mean no amount of god-like skills can “play” you out of danger, and lastly we have yet more “murky” graphic pre-indicators/warnings of damage that can only be seen by hawks or with night vision goggles on.
I’m frankly disappointed. As always, I do have high hopes with the LE dev team, but it seems like they’re just falling into that same old “poe” trap of laziness when it comes to dungeons.
To partially restate my previous opinion. MoF bosses are by and large great. Why? Because there are clear & obvious methods to avoid their damage, they seldom one shot but when they do you can learn from that and improve how you approach the fight, the graphics are clean so telegraphs are visible. Lastly, when there is a deadly damage, there is also normally a clearly obvious inert thing/object in the arena you can use to hide behind/dodge around etc. In other words, they are well thought out & executed fights. “I will kill you with this attack” never appears without “here’s how you can avoid it with skill”.
Dungeon bosses seem to be the opposite. Telegraphs that don’t stand out from the fight areas background (i.e. grey on black). One shots calculated to overpower 99.99% of builds ehp with massive AoE circles and no designed “safe points”. Badly thought out damage mitigation options that don’t work very well most of the time. Lastly, way too much overthought and complication that leads to no OBVIOUS methods to attempt fights.
The one thing they forgot from PoE is that when fighting things, you had MULTIPLE portals, so it wasn’t a “have a go, fail, then wait for another key/start from the beginning, fail, then wait another 30mins-2 hours for another go”. IF you are going to make stupidly hard fights at T4, then don’t penalise us with only being able to have ONE GO at it per run!
Stepping from T1-T4 should be harder, I agree. However, making T4 so hard and overtuned that it’s basically pointless defeats the object of having that 4th level. People just won’t bother engaging with it for the most part, so it’s not really serving any purpose being content in a game. There don’t need to be 1 shot massive AoE killing zones to make things harder, it’s just lazy. Instead, try using time. Use speed of attacks, use faster rotations, idk think of anything along those lines but anything apart from 10k dmg attacks when you damn well know the highest sort of Ehp is 9k and below.
The fact that so much feedback was given on Julra, then 2 “double down” versions of bosses were released just makes me sad. I expected and expect in the future better from the devs.
This has its own set of problems, some players are really good about seeing zones and avoiding the big one shots, but these players perhaps have bad reaction time, suddenly now they dont get killed in one hit and instead are expected to get better reaction time which is much harder to do then to understand a pattern. For example take the black sun boss who does his pattern attack ill call it “pie chart” attack. lets say you half its damage, but make it twice as fast, suddenly the play becomes “just build tank and tank it cause you certainly cant move out of the way” instead of “learn the pattern and stand close so you have more time to move” etc.
I think making boss fights one shot you and expect you to learn patterns is far more forgiving then creating what are literal stat checks or expect you to be head clicker 9000 shooter pro levels of reaction time.
This isnt to say they could tone down the new bosses, but I think if you are having problems learning the current bosses, having to have twice as much reaction and still good ehp would make the problem worse tbh.
Yes, you do have a good point. I was merely using that idea as a suggestion or a vague hint.
I’m not totally against one shots & learning patterns. However, those patterns have to be reachable by players without speed skills, and visibly clear to the players. The pie chart seems ok in that regard, unless of course one of the “green” slice of pie attacks also procs at the same time and overlaps, then you have no safe zone at all, and that is one problem highlighted in vids of the fight.
That’s one mechanic of the 3 1/2 dungeon bosses though. I’m sorry, but it’s also one of the rarities with all of their attacks, most of the other attacks/mechanics I think are poorly implemented when compared to the “pie” attack. That attack is about the only one I would equate with the well thought out Mono bosses. The rest, I stick by my opinion, they’re simply put, lazily incremented from T1 - T4. They seem to have the PoE approach to incrementing - make it deadlier, make it more invisible, and make it almost impossible to dodge. Again, using them as an example, years ago I thought their boss fights were well done, and well thought out. Take Shaper & Elder. Mechanical fights, but as a player you always stood a chance. Then the laziness crept in, and now you have the messes of the top tier bosses there now.
I think this current path being taken for bosses in dungeons is a slippery slope, and it just seems to me anyway to go against all of the other bosses in this game prior to the release of dungeons. It’s almost as though they sub contracted the PoE idiots to make these bosses instead of the same guys who made the mono bosses.
So, again, although speed etc was one idea I stuck in my previous post it wasn’t exclusive. All I really want are well planned out boss fights like the mono ones where the player has a chance to learn the fight properly, with proper options for evading attacks, clearly distinguishable telegraphs from the background of the floor etc; and without ludicrous damage numbers on attacks which make stacking any defensive measures pointless. It can’t be that hard to do, as they already did it with the Mono bosses 
This game is designed with controller support, you cant even dodge properly with most movement skills as they auto lock on to the mob anyway
Lagon does his beam from right to left, on a mouse keyboard you can just use a movement skill to dash through/over it, on a controller you dash into his head as the controller auto locks on,
If fighting Chronomancer, if she drops a void puddle on you around the centre of the room, you try to use a movement skill to get away it will launch you as far as possible outside the arena to instant death, unless you have her targeted in which it will teleport right in her face
Why the devs havent made an option for movement skills to not auto target, who knows but playing on a controller you have to fight all these bosses on foot without reliable movement skill
Yup, Spent the last 2 days trying the new dungeons, and my opinion has not changed.
Silly boss fight designs. Lazy one shot abilities.
I could even handle the terrible design flaws (my opinion, see above) IF I had more than one attempt per key!
This is the worst thing about it all, you have to grind for a key, then grind through the annoying dungeon layout, then (in the case of arbor) defeat an annoying gatekeeper boss (which I see absolutely no point in whatsoever), then try the boss and if you are unlucky enough to get so much as a scratch from a massive AoE ability with more damage than you can build a defence for then you have to start the process all over again from the beginning. I just do not understand the lazy 1-shot attack mechanic. We have a finite number of healing potions, so why not just make the largest single damage attack something that costs the “average” player 3/4 of their ehp? If you then get hit by 2-3 of those attacks, you die. That’s fair enough. 1-shot that hits for 2x-3x more than the highest defences any toon can build? Why? It’s just plain friggin stupid, and did I mention lazy?
Sorry Devs, but that is not enjoyable (for me anyway) in the slightest. Doing these dungeons merely reminds me of all the times I wanted to bash my head against a wall in my PoE days. In fact, this last dungeon attempt I caught myself feeling identical feelings to those old unavoidable 1-shot PoE deaths. That was the entire reason I quit that game after playing for years. To be reminded of it in LE is for me a terrible, terrible sign. Unlike PoE I’m not going to masochistically play for years before quitting. I came HERE to escape that!!!
Mono’s haven’t changed all that much since my last long playing period, so there’s nothing new to draw me into grinding those for hours on end. Dungeons, in their current mess of a state I refuse to engage with an entire ethos that will just make me angry - that’s not why I play games.
So, I’m left with no real choice but to take yet another break (having been back for all of 3 days) pending patch notes that change something significant. I refuse to do something that makes me angry. I welcome challenging content and frustration, but this is not that, this is anger at pointless & unavoidable deaths due to out of context damage levels (no mob should single attack for more than a “typical” character can build defences to counteract death from).
Humbly, I suggest either a total rework of these dungeon bosses to make them more in line with mono bosses (put some thought into the fights), or at the very least a “portal” system so that we get 3+ portals to avoid having to grind another key and fight our way to the boss all over again. I look forward to reading patch notes, hopefully seeing some change, and then coming back once more for a lengthy stay.
Oh, and P.S. I am NOT going to make the latest “meta” build just to do dungeons. I fell into that league after league trap over there, and again that is why I came here. I already have several builds that I enjoy that can do high corruption (300+) monos and a couple of high level arena builds, they should be enough. I will only make more builds if I want to make them to enjoy playing, not out of a sense of “having to”. Hope that answers that question before it arrives.
Lizard made a video yesterday where he did 500 corruption naked, saying that gear does not matter as much as the “more” modifiers in skill trees.
I have a similar issue with T4. It is more a skill challenge than a gear challenge and it renders most defenses useless that you invested in.
Also, if you have a good build, the hard part shouldn’t be the bosses, but the infinite scaling content like MoF and Arena. Why is the infinitely scaling content often easier than static content?
Lastly, someone proposed the idea to use the keys to get to the dungeon rewards. I really like that idea, because than you are not locked out of content. You can actually practice the bosses and the keys still remain with a value.
Saw this on the other post… I also like the concept… Fight your way to the treasure chest but you can only open it if you have the key… For me that basically means you can run the dungeons as many times as you like learning/dying or just farming them… but the real reward still needs the key… Sounds like a best of both worlds kind of solution to me…
It’s better than the current state, I agree, but it’s still a half way house type solution.
You would still be forced to go all the way through the grindy and monotonous dungeon map to get to the boss. Portals, a la poe, could enable you to just restart where you died if you’d already gone through the tedium of clearing a path to the boss “waiting room”. At least, they could be setup that way as current player made map portals outside of mof already work that way in LE anyway.
I could almost find myself coping with just how bad the boss fights are in dungeons if I could only have a few attempts at it. I’d be happy with only the one attempt if the fights didn’t have such shady & dubious mechanics.
Plus I completely agree @Fragtal
“I have a similar issue with T4. It is more a skill challenge than a gear challenge and it renders most defenses useless that you invested in.”
I too watched @LizardIRL 's new video last night and thought it was really well done. However, I would like to see a duplicate of that video taking place in any of the 3 dungeons against even a T3 boss. The video to me went even further to highlight how mono’s are in a mostly good place balance wise but need tweaking. I don’t think that a massing of normal “white” mobs should kill a fully skilled player easily unless it was an exceedingly large group.
I would also say that his approach probably wouldn’t work against a mono boss at high corruption though but I do think that his naked character would last a hell of a lot longer than against a T3 dungeon boss which would one shot a naked character into oblivion. Considering that those white mobs were lvl100 & corrupted, surely they should be doing more damage than a lvl 80-90 boss (T3 approx) which is 10 levels below a lvl100 toon and yet even at T3 would hit a naked character like a truck with one of his “lazy 1-shot” mechanics.
Something like that?
OK, he had an overpowered Bastion. Still pretty close to naked.
Edit: to clarify, this video comes from @Enuw. I wouldn’t have half the skill needed to do something like that.
Something along those lines yeah, although I am mystified (if it is in fact T4) how he manages to survive being hit by one of the revolving lasers with less than 2500HP & no shield (it’s near the end).
Well, Lizard’s complain was that gear doesn’t really matter for damage, which he displayed well in high monoliths. Whereas T4 dungeons rather invalidate your defenses, but he wasn’t talking about defenses at all.
@Houlala i was wondering yesterday if a naked run is possible, but was thinking that the puddle requires you to have at least a certain amount of life and defenses. Thanks for sharing.
Mostly, yes, but not entirely. If you play the whole thing & listen to his commentary he makes frequent mentions of how he is surviving the encounter without gear on, without resists etc etc. It’s all about listening carefully and not dozing off 