PoE necro is pretty must just like any other games pet summoning necromancer. summon a bunch of pets and they kill for you. if you’ve played D3, their necro has the same combat. Grim dawn? their necro has the same combat, wulcen? necro has the same combat, even here same thing.
its one thing to talk about stats its another when we are talking about classes playing pretty much the same.
if he has played any ARPG with a necromancer that summons pets, hes played the necro here, and grim dawn, and D2/3,
had EHG made necro to not have any pets whatsoever it would actually be different from the normal.
playing Rogue feels like playing Nightblade from grim dawn to me.
What are you talking about? Necromancer without summons? Playing rogue feels like you play a rogue?
It’s like going to a box club and wondering why aren’t they playing yu-gi-oh instead of boxing.
Like come on, why should they “mutilate” the classes by taking away the mechanics everybody loves them for. 99% of people who wanna play necromancer want to have summons.
Victor Vran is e.g. is a game where they tried something else - not generic and some people really fancied it. But let’s be honest how many people play it? Like 10? Why should EHG make the same mistake?
not going to go back and forth with you since the point has already gone over your head.
OP said he wants to see some innovation since the classes are practically the same with other games in this genre. i agree with him they are practically the same and it wouldnt hurt to have just a bit of difference.
his low playtime in this game is irrelevant if he put a significant amount of time in other games like GD or PoE or D2/3
because they all play pretty much the same. only difference is story and landscape not class.
Most classes in most aRPGs are based on a handful of archetypes which it’s fairly hard to get away from. So while I agree the older classes could do with a bit of a poke with the makeover stick, I wouldn’t expect them to go too far off-piste.
Pick any class from any aRPG from D1 onwards & show me a class that’s not the same as, or an extension from the basic archetypes (or a D&D class).
Got any ideas, lay em on the table or shuffle off to complain in groups that can’t come up with anything either.
Grim Dawn had to give the ability to hybridize multiple cliché classes to hide that nothing was unique. Path of Exile just removed classes (somewhat) altogether and let you use cliché class-related skills where-ever you please.
Ironically the most unique class I’ve seen in the past 10 years was in Tree of Savior (and it was never completed)…you could pull your party members into formation sort of like a bard warrior, and their positions would give them attack/def/various other buffs from where they were.
And, as I noted, it’s just a fricking BARD slated to target range…same sheep, different wool color.
excuse me? so agreeing with the op who has already put ideas on the table is complaing in groups that cant come up with something? no ill definitely move along from such hostility.
Bye. Fact was that OP had no points to be made to begin with: there’s nothing left to do that fits the theme of the game, so acting high and mighty was uncalled for from the get go.
Every RPG is is technically a ripoff of another. They either all use some variant of DND archetypes, or Diablo, or some other pillar game in the genre. I don’t think it really matters too much if the classes are mostly similar to other archetypes simply because it is the game’s mechanics that will determine how they play, not the class archetype itself. Just because 2 necros summon things doesn’t mean the actual gameplay will be the same.
I also don’t think it’s fair to say that the skills are unoriginal when you haven’t gotten to the point when they branch out into their unique paths. Like any game in this genre, give it some time to actually bloom before making judgements. You may change your opinion, you may not, but it will be much better informed.
Below is not opinion but what happened with the games that sticked out in the years:
At D3 release, no necro, no pally, no amazon. Diablo 3: No hammers no skellies. Only the bare minimum, one class (barb), was translated into the 3rd game.
Grim Dawn same, classes are not “arpg homework done”, steam reviews: overwhelmingly positive (95%+) ← this alone is a statement that you’d rather should not make cyclones and hammers (meaning you should not look like you’re copying diablo) in your ARPG
The good games do their best to not introduce something that looks coming straight from another same game (or are too good at masking it), because they knew you have to make a fresh design or you get unnecessarily exposed by the “but here it was done better (regardless if true or not)” which is always a pejorative when it happens.
I can think of multiple from sacred 1 and 2 that feel unique and have some really odd skills/item mods that I haven’t seen in any other games in this genre. You could also modify each skill with a basic tree in Sacred 2 so it doesn’t make LE unique in that regard. As I have said in another thread, I feel that LE is following the crowd and is no longer going in it’s own direction. Just because the genre seems to be stuck in a rut, it doesn’t mean we should let it continue that path.
I tried the Rogue and even posted my thoughts in a PM to you mate. They were close to the thoughts of the OP in that I felt that the skills are underwhelming and far too close to other games in the genre. I get that we can level them to the end game and spec them to do some ‘new’ things but it doesn’t escape the fact that the base skills still feel like a copy/paste from other games even down to having the same skill names. I struggle to call the Rogue polished & synergistic as you said, she feels generic with a few differences if you level some of the skills high enough.
It really pains me to say it but the more LE is developing, the less I seem to enjoy it. Coming from a massive fan of the genre since D1, it does make me feel sad to feel this way
We shouldn’t be too quick to dismiss the OP’s concerns and say to just ‘play more’. They make some good points that need to be heard and will hopefully improve the game before realese.
LE has some unique skills but they themselves become somewhat irritating to play for more than maybe an hour, some examples -
Assemble Abomination, Death Seal, Dreadshade
The problem with these skills as they can be modified slightly but you are stuck with their premise of constant degen or impassable cooldown
Assemble Abomination I played for a little while but ultimately shelved it because to get any value out of it you need to cast Dreadshade/Infernal shade on it with nodes which give it a stacking endless degen ontop of its own scaling health decay - I didnt mind having to summon it per area but most areas I couldnt even get it to live with many changes/gear setups/passives etc
or Deathseals wave cannot be up 100% of the time, or the fact Dreadshade is just a headache to use longterm
Most of the skills can be sorted with uniques such as
‘Assemble Abomination no longer decays health or takes damage over time
-50% maximum health’
But there is no massive flexibility on some, ie Death Wave doesnt have an 100% uptime node for 50% less damage which over the course of 10 seconds is the same DPS yet one feels bad to play, the other doesnt
The other issue is many other skills are the same as most people have already played, the Mage/Primalist/Sentinel is especially bad for this and it doesnt help skills such as Thorn Totem are just awful off the bat and doesnt make you want to play them
I disagree, I think all of the skills in Sacred 1 & 2 are all derivations of previosuly existing skills in other games & I would challenge you to prove me wrong. IMO, Sacred 1 & 2 felt fresh & different mainly because it was a)over a decade ago & there had been fewer aRPGs then & b)we were young.
A quick look through some of the combat arts and I strongly disagree that all are derived from skills in other games. I agree that some of the more basic attacks are but others are just crazy skills that I have not seen before or after. It also had mounts that altered the effects of the combat arts
I don’t need to prove you wrong mate, I think deep down you agree that Ascaron were extremely inventive and introduced things to the genre that are still used today such as combat art modifications
Sacred did have some unique stuff (e.g. BFG creating its own weapon is something that I can’t think of seeing before). On the other hand, Sacred also had issues with copying combat arts between characters (e.g. I think at least 3 classes in S2 had either a sweep attack or a flurry attack, if not both, with similar “get better numbers”-type mod options).
On the OP’s point, while other classes certainly need some touch-ups now to reach the level of polish that rogue has, I disagree that cosmetic similarities/differences to other games really matters. Judging how LE characters play based on the first 20 levels is like judging POE based on killing Dominus or judging D2 based on normal Chaos Sanctuary. LE has a very distinct feel from either of those games despite many superficial similarities.
Some high level comparisons for “common” builds mentioned in this thread:
Standard summonmancer:
D2: Mid-sized permanent army; very active playstyle due to also using curses, corpse explosion, revive, and/or bone wall/prison; need to manage self/golem positioning manually to manipulate AI (this is less important with teleport charges/Enigma)
POE: medium-to-large permanent army, possibly supplemented by medium-to-large temporary army; very passive for clearing playstyle because zombies/specters/golems kill too quickly for player actions to have meaningful impact, playstyle for bossing is more engaging since you have to avoid one-shots for both yourself and your army
LE: small-to-medium permanent army depending on how you spec skills, possibly supplemented by one-to-unlimited temporary summons; requires more engagement than POE due to minion speed limitations but don’t approach the level of micro from D2
Whirlwind:
D2: Very unique gearing considerations compared to other non-shapeshifter melee characters due to not benefiting from off-weapon IAS, has to stop attacking to use warcries, need a strategy for sustain vs. unleechables, (prior to 1.13) had to have alternate strategies for Chaos Sanctuary and Worldstone Keep due to OK iron maiden
POE: need to decide if cyclone is your actual main attack or just a CoC/CwC/Herald of Agony-engine, need to balance scaling hit damage vs. attack speed/bleed/impale/fortify/etc., need to decide if you’re scaling AOE for clear vs. relying on corpse pop propagating, plenty of options for instant skills to provide utility without interrupting attacks, negligible mana cost
LE: need to decide if you’re scaling hit damage vs. void magic vs. DOTs, can be made stationary and/or given vacuum effect, can give more defensive benefits for two-handers at opportunity cost of more offense, needs some consideration for sustain due to lack of mana leech/potions
Hammerdin (assuming spectral throw for POE here since there isn’t a real equivalent skill that I can think of):
D2: magic attack, requires skill to use efficiently due to unique AOE, takes up both skill slots, (prior to 1.13) most homogeneous build due to being the most “one-skill-kills-all”-build in the game, specific gearing/skilling needs limit potential for utility/hybridization, very mana-hungry
POE: melee weapon attack, limited availability of projectile supports due to innate pierce/return, requires swapping GMP/slower projectiles gems to optimize clearing vs. bossing, need to decide if scaling physical vs. elemental, requires skill to manipulate returns for maximizing effective damage, negligible mana cost
LE: throwing (not melee) attack, can be pierce/return or pierce or spiral or chain or orbit, can be single projectile or multiple projectiles, can be scaled for physical or void or DOTs, more synergy with other sentinel skills than D2’s paladin to support utility skills, can be mana-cheap or mana-hungry depending on speccing
Sacred’s skill mods can be seen as a basis for LE’s skill trees, but LE takes it to such another level that it’s like comparing eating spell books in D1 vs. actual skill trees in D2.
Haha, I should’ve specified that I hadn’t seen that in an ARPG, but fair enough
D1 was an attempt to make a real-time roguelike, and Rogue was an attempt to make a computerized D&D, and D&D was an attempt to make a game out of media and folklore, which all goes to show that there’s almost nothing original in the world anymore if you trace it back far enough. I’d rather play a fun game with derivative qualities than play a bad game that’s “original”
This is exactly what I mean. I don’t have any problems with trying to innovate, I just don’t want people to get their hopes up that they’ll come up with something that doesn’t draw inspiration from other sources.
