Random Questions I have

[Kulze]

@Llama8

How much of that actually matters though? PoE doesn’t even show damage numbers during combat but I’m not sure many people complain about it (any more, they could have a long time ago tbf).

Because the shown numbers aren’t as important as the direct feedback and former information usually.

If I know with 100k DPS I’ll kill an enemy quick… then I know 150k will feel better.
But if I don’t know how much DPS I actually do… I can’t adjust easily do increase that.

For example, is the variance in damage the same for every element? For example lightning usually has a wide variance in damage rolls in quite a lot of games… while physical damage is usually very close together. Does that uphold in LE or not? I think ‘no’ but that comes from high personal experience, a player can’t know well.

In comparison in PoE a player can simply read the tooltip stating ‘35-44’ damage for phys versus ‘1-84’ damage for lightning and immediately go ‘Oh, ok, so when I build crit around lightning I can regularly cause devastating sudden hits but I won’t be consistent, while with phys I’ll always deal steady damage’. Also the numbers there between those 2 that the phys damage is less DPS then the lightning damage provides in that example.

In LE the current state is that the player doesn’t even know initially of variance exists. It seems ‘static’ for damage. You deal ‘65’ damage… but it’s not 65.
That can be especially important when additions to a game come which are based on consistency. Like ‘this driggers when you’re dealt x damage’ or ‘this triggers when you deal x damage’.

@Psojed

I believe DJ already answered this one.

And where can I check it? Is that official or just tell-tale basically which you have to pull out of the void of the internet?

@Psojed

Yes, you did say tooltips:

For the damage ranges, was badly worded. Our player ranges are not existing. Enemy ranges can be inferred from that to be similar… or less. Depending on setup usually less to stay more consistent.

Nucleus of the Maven

I can look it up in PoE. Their Database site does show this information. Last Epoch’s does not.

Also there’s the complete breakdown of the specific effects and damage types as well as exact damage ranges available as well.

So, yes, it’s kinda disclosed, just the usual GGG shenanigans of not doing it first party, but allowing to provide it.

@Psojed

Well they are

There’s a bigger variance then in games otherwise. If you play in Torchlight infinite then Tier 8 has Tier 8 enemies, you can directly infer their power level hence and only need to take into consideration personally applied effects.

In PoE the same goes. T16 is T16, enemies have their fixed baseline there, also only affected by the map modifiers and other personal modifiers provided (like altars in maps).

It’s more difficult to do it with a moving baseline and get a solid result, because you don’t play at 100 corruption or 150 corruption… you play at 123 or 227 for example. Yes, miniscule changes but makes consistency go overboard for intuitive returns.

@Psojed

I’d argue if one monolith is mostly a swarm of weak bugs and the other is siege golems and casters summoning meteors from off-screen, then it’s pretty easy to tell which is which.

Yeah, the weak bugs kill my build while my single target DPS is so high that golems drop dead immediately and pose no danger Summoners off-screen is kinda a mess for every build though.

@Psojed

But right now it sounds like you never did any testing.

Because I’m not speaking from my own position but a new player’s, or a still learning player’s position there.

Ease of information acquisition and quantity of information pose the difficulty to overcome in ARPGs besides the actual personal experience to perfect it. But the acquisition of information in LE is kinda hard in comparison… while for example in PoE the sheer quantity causes the issue.

It’s kinda bad if similar issues are in a game which doesn’t have said quantity - yet - though, showcases that something else is causing it, and that can usually be avoided.

[Psojed]

@Kulze

I can look it up in PoE.

No, you cannot.

You can look it up at some player-made website that datamined something.
You also have no way to confirm it’s “official”.

Either wait until a website gets created for Last Epoch, with the granularity you want, or make your own. I can’t help you with that

[DJSamhein]

@Kulze

And where can I check it? Is that official or just tell-tale basically which you have to pull out of the void of the internet?

You can check the answers to these questions on their discord. You can ask the devs directly, which they will, unlike most game devs.
You can check other sources like:

Damage Calculations Explained - Last Epoch Maxroll.gg

or Combat Calculations - Official Last Epoch Wiki (although that one still says 25%, which I believe was the old number, because that wiki isn’t updated in a long time)
both of which say that the damage variance is global (meaning the same for all) for hits and doesn’t apply to DoTs.

There aren’t yet as many sources for this info as for PoE because PoE has been around a lot longer. In the first couple of years, getting this info was also spotty at best for PoE.

[Kulze]

Yes, much like I could only trade through a player made website for years, or can only price-check with a third party program, or can only reliably get a carry through friggin Discord.

All those are negative points towards GGG since it should be inherent functionality in the game since it’s become the norm to use for a reason… and I don’t mean ‘DPS-meter’ norm like in WoW where it does tell you absolutely nothing besides making a toxic environment. It’s functionality which removes the grating aspects of the interaction with the game mechanics which have no need to be grating.

Hence them neither existing in-game nor external is a bigger detriment then the situation over at GGG Taken into consideration the lower lifetime of LE as well with how many things they can provide realistically. But damage variance as a tooltip is a Day 1 implementation supposed to happen plainly spoken, in-game.

The enemy stuff can wait in comparison… but only in comparison, it’s also an improtant aspect.

[Kulze]

@DJSamhein

You can check the answers to these questions on their discord.

Ah yes, good job from them, as first-party outsourcing information to third party applications… you know the stuff that shouldn’t ever happen?

[DJSamhein]

@Kulze

Ah yes, good job from them, as first-party outsourcing information to third party applications… you know the stuff that shouldn’t ever happen?

Still better than every other game where there is no official info on that.
When has GGG ever officially released their damage formula? All you know is from players datamining the game.

So at least you have a place where you can ask the devs and they will let you know.

[Kulze]

That’s a step backwards from datamining and providing the data on a third party site even.

At least people use those third party sites in general, like lastepochtools… but on the Discord? That’s a mess plainly spoken

I’m already speaking out about the data not being provided by GGG personally for PoE… so obviously I’ll do the same here, and quite more clearly.

[DJSamhein]

I don’t see what your issue with that is.
1-Official announcements: PoE does them all on their site and EHG sometimes fails to do so.
2-Player datamining: both games have this. PoE has more because it’s been out the longest.
3-Dev to community communication: GGG has none of that. EHG has it. A player has a question, the devs will answer. Sometimes they even answer on the forums. When was the last time one of the GGG team answered a random forum post on their site? When was the last time one of the GGG team answered anyone directly about anything? Or answered a question made to them (which you can’t, because they’re not available for that)?

So in regards to this, EHG is actually going the extra mile. They’re doing what no other company does (big enough ones, anyway).
The only problem lies in #1 not being consistent. Because #3 is actually a positive for players seeking answers.

[Llama8]

@Psojed

@Kulze

Mono 1 will be a breeze, mono 2 with the same mobs, the same corruption will be a death-sentence… but which modifier causes it specifically? It’s extremely hard to test for a player in LE sadly.

I’d argue if one monolith is mostly a swarm of weak bugs and the other is siege golems and casters summoning meteors from off-screen, then it’s pretty easy to tell which is which.

TBF, in his post, he did specifically say that they had the same mobs.

@Kulze

For example, is the variance in damage the same for every element?

Yes.

@Kulze

For example lightning usually has a wide variance in damage rolls in quite a lot of games… while physical damage is usually very close together.

Not in LE.

You can test this easily.

@Kulze

a player can’t know well.

Apart from by testing it themselves on the training dummy.

@Kulze

In comparison in PoE a player can simply read the tooltip stating ‘35-44’ damage for phys versus ‘1-84’ damage for lightning and immediately go ‘Oh, ok, so when I build crit around lightning I can regularly cause devastating sudden hits but I won’t be consistent, while with phys I’ll always deal steady damage’. Also the numbers there between those 2 that the phys damage is less DPS then the lightning damage provides in that example.

Yes, and the character screen is on their list of things to update but it got pushed back by MP 'cause priorities.

@Kulze

And where can I check it? Is that official or just tell-tale basically which you have to pull out of the void of the internet?

It’s from testing. You can do the same if you wish.

[DJSamhein]

@Llama8

It’s from testing. You can do the same if you wish.

It’s actually from all 3 sources: testing, datamining and dev confirmation.

[Kulze]

@DJSamhein

So in regards to this, EHG is actually going the extra mile. They’re doing what no other company does (big enough ones, anyway).

The go the other route simply, not the extra mile.

GGG provides a lot more information in-game directly to the players… and over time the things which have been urged for to be provided have been at least recurringly done so via third party sites… so GGG ‘dropped the ball’ there simply.

EHG doesn’t even provide the baseline which GGG has… on the other hand they answer to questions on third party programs.

Which one is better? Neither, they are different in being bad

And yes, #3 is a positive… if it’s done as well as the other things, not as the only measure. And yes #1 is inconsistent.

@Llama8

Apart from by testing it themselves on the training dummy.

I totally forget they exist actually, that’s my bad.

[DJSamhein]

@Kulze

GGG provides a lot more information in-game directly to the players

Are you being serious? GGG provides almost no information in game for almost everything. You constantly have to use third party sites to get that information. Which, to be honest, is the norm in almost all games.

@Kulze

EHG doesn’t even provide the baseline which GGG has

Againg, are you serious? Just the LE in-game guide alone is a lot more information than PoE has.

If you wanted to know what is the base crit multiplier mobs have, for example, you actually have that answer in-game in LE and you don’t have it in PoE.

In-game information is a lot more plentiful in LE than PoE. I have no idea where you’re getting this from.

@Kulze

on the other hand they answer to questions on third party programs.

I was talking about the stuff that neither game shows officially. You know, things like the damage formula, or several other formulas. Or how X interacts with Y.

If you want to know exactly how, for example, Manifest Armor takes the affixes from the armor, and which ones count or not, you can directly ask the devs and they will tell you.
If you want to know a similar question in PoE, either some player has to test it or someone has to datamine the information.

So I’d say EHG does win on that regard. They just need to get their official declarations properly in line, which really is something they sometimes fail at.

[Llama8]

@Kulze

so GGG ‘dropped the ball’ there simply.

No, it’s on their list of things to do, it’s not not been done yet.

@DJSamhein

Are you being serious? GGG provides almost no information in game for almost everything.

The skill tooltips are pretty good.

[DJSamhein]

@Llama8

The skill tooltips are pretty good.

Yes, that is true. But it still doesn’t tell you what the damage formula is, or what the expected variance will be. It’s more that they’re accurate than they’re informative.

[Llama8]

@DJSamhein

or what the expected variance will be

The damage variance is already in the tooltips.

[DJSamhein]

@Llama8

The damage variance is already in the tooltips.

That’s my fault, I didn’t expain properly. Or rather, I used a term we were discussing in a different way.
I didn’t mean variance as in the ranges it can output but as in how each new zone or enemy will impact that damage. Or, in other words, what the actual numbers you’ll be doing are.
Which I understood is what Kulze wanted to be able to calculate in-game.

Something like “If I go do a T16, I will do x DPS, if I go do delve 5k I will do y DPS, if I go do Heist it will be z DPS”. Which PoE doesn’t tell you in-game either.
If that wasn’t what he meant, then I misunderstood and you can ignore that.

Also, as a sidenote, while their tooltips are pretty good, no one actually knows their real DPS without PoB, so it’s not like it has all information.

[Kulze]

@DJSamhein

Are you being serious? GGG provides almost no information in game for almost everything.

Core mechanics? More info definitely.

The character sheet has some missing info (minions mostly… like in LE as well, big negative for both games plainly spoken) but overall the low-level information is ‘there’.

Damage ranges, defense mechanics (armor is a stupid tooltip in PoE though), defensive measures and offensive measures. It does a relatively decent job in providing a ‘baseline’ tooltip overall.

But yes, for everything else you need third party, agreed, which as said… massive negative for GGG.

@DJSamhein

Againg, are you serious? Just the LE in-game guide alone is a lot more information than PoE has.

The explanation of combat mechanics in the game guide is more in-depth then in PoE definitely, agreed.
Albeit also to be fair… the sheer amount of auxiliary mechanics like ‘glancing blows’ or ‘endurance’ is utterly staggering in LE. Good for future implementations but as a baseline very confusing. PoE’s setup is more simplistic in that regard, hence less need to actually explain things as in-depth.

The combat mechanics are majorly showcased in PoE through the character screen and direct visual changes when equipping different items.
Also it’s visually better designed since unaffected stats don’t get displayed, hence with a dual-wield build you have ‘main-hand damage’ and ‘off-hand damage’ while a two-handed character only has ‘main-hand damage’ displayed. Same going for the specific elements as well as ailments.

The defensive part of the character screen in LE is similar though, that’s well done from EHG, kudos there.

The minion tab in PoE is entirely missing, quite awful plainly spoken.
But LE also doesn’t do a great job, vastly better by having it… but how much base-damage does your own minion again? Would be kiiiinda nice to know.

Misc is misc, there’s some great things and bad things available.

The guide alone isn’t sufficient, many of the aspects LE provides can be interwoven into the character sheet directly… or should be. While GGG would do well to expand on their game-guide similar to what LE has.

Also there’s a important difference between explanation of stuff and providing the values for things, the second is superior in PoE without argument even… the first is better in LE.

@Llama8

No, it’s on their list of things to do, it’s not not been done yet.

Soon ™

@DJSamhein

or what the expected variance will be.

That it actually tells you.

You have in-game the minimum damage, the maximum damage and your modifiers. There’s just a lack of showing things like charges and specific unique mechanics in the tooltips, which is kinda hard to provide but also can be overlooked to a degree… if a character builder is available.

@DJSamhein

Or, in other words, what the actual numbers you’ll be doing are.

The same, surprisingly.
Resistances aren’t affected through the area, level only provides life and damage, as well as the ability damage itself.
Albeit there’s also ‘only’ 17 relevant stages available for that… while in LE the sheer quantity of corruption levels makes it harder to discern a baseline - as mentioned - and also quite a lot more prominent.
In PoE you won’t realize going from T1 to T2 severely, it’s a really slight increase but substantial over all 17 Tiers available… but in LE you’ll definitely realize a difference from 0-50 corruption and so on… unless you outpace the content with some means.

Your DPS stays always the same, same with delve, same with heist, same with incursion… just the enemy types change, those have different resistances, as well as their modifiers when magic/rare.

@DJSamhein

Also, as a sidenote, while their tooltips are pretty good, no one actually knows their real DPS without PoB, so it’s not like it has all information.

It comes massively closer though, which is a good start. But plainly spoken… my 16k tooltip DPS when I do 80k hits 3-4 times a second with my marksman is a ‘little bit off’

[DJSamhein]

@Kulze

Also there’s a important difference between explanation of stuff and providing the values for things, the second is superior in PoE without argument even… the first is better in LE.

Ok, I hadn’t understood your point there. I agree with that.

@Kulze

It comes massively closer though, which is a good start.

I also agree with that, although not with “a good start”. PoE is 13yo by now. Start isn’t a good word to use anymore. And if they haven’t made it completely accurate, I’d say there isn’t much hope it will ever be.
I don’t think you’ll ever have a time when you don’t need PoB to know if something will give you more damage or not.

And I expect the same thing will happen with LE as well.

[Kulze]

@DJSamhein

Start isn’t a good word to use anymore.

We can say they’re… fairly ‘late starters’

I hope EHG will learn from the shortcomings of GGG’s methods rather then copying them… and that GGG is forced to pull along with the things EHG does better. That’s what proper competition is for after all.

[Psojed]

@Llama8

TBF, in his post, he did specifically say that they had the same mobs.

Yeah he did, but I’m highly questioning the validity of it. There’s like 1 monolith modifier which could really make a difference (Deadly: +100% more dmg).