Necromancer Changes: Round two, Fight!

So for the better part of a year now I’ve on and off discussed many topics pertaining to the necromancer, and even articulated that i was willing to take the changes in baby steps, but it seems that even that was asking too much, so now I’m going to discuss the theory of baby steps, or at the very least, I’m going to discuss what went wrong with this patch and what HAS to happen to prevent the actual death of the necromancer as a viable class (and before we begin, as of 0.8.3, the necromancer is no longer considered a viable class by me personally)

To start off, an observation about the development cycle surrounding the necromancer: it has become clear that either someone involved in the class design is bad at math, or there is an actively malicious party attempting to sabotage Necromancers as a class, although the reasons for the later possibility is of yet unknown.

Preface: Necromancers have issues, this is no surprise to anyone I’m sure, but they certainly have a lot more issues that any other class I’ve played (which is basically all of them except marksman, paladin and spellblade) but since asking for sweeping changes or making not of any large scale issues with class design has proven non-fruitful over the past year, i will focus only on the three publicly acknowledged ‘problematic’ skills that have been the hot topic skills of this patch, those namely being Dread Shade, Wraiths, and Abomination. however, not only will i re-iterate on what is wrong with these skills, i will specifically delve into why this patch not only failed to solve these issues, but actively made these issues so much worse as to lead to the Necromancer no longer being viable as a class.


Dread Shade: so for those of you who pay attention, you probably know that I’m not a particular fan of this skill, and never have been (as I stand by the assertion that it should have been a minion and not a buff, but that’s not why we’re here right now) but I have chosen to discuss this spell first, as i will need to use a part of this argument when discussing the next two abilities.
Why did the change fail?: before we can delve into what exactly went wrong with dread shade, I feel the need to articulate a certain idea behind spell value in Last Epoch, this idea being that we are all limited to 5 spell slots, and 5 specializations (naturally the assumption being that the 5 spells we keep on are bar are the ones we have specialized, but some nonsense builds have skirted around this idea in various ways) but we often overlook the value of these individual slots. To elaborate, we are only capable of doing 100% of the damage that we do, and are only capable of being 100% as tough as we are, this is a statement of obvious fact that shouldn’t really need explaining, but in the context of the 5 spell slots it takes on a particularly new meaning, as those slots represent the sum of our potential actions as a player. so with this in mind, prior to selecting any spells, each slot represents equally 20% of our ability to deal damage and to survive. so in a world where all things are equal, the distribution of power around these 5 spell slots must always remain consistent with this idea, even if one slot ends up representing 50% of our total damage, the remaining 50% of our damage must be distributed in some way between the remaining 4 slots. and this brings us to dread shade.
Put simply, Dread shade is a buff. therefore, it represents 0% of our total damage from the spell slot that it occupies, as it does not deal damage (to enemies…) so in order to maintain its value within that spell slot, it must (at the barest minimum) increase the damage potential of the remaining 4 spell slots by at least 25% (since those slots would go from bearing 20% of our potential to 25%, which itself is a 25% increase) and in fact, it used to do exactly this. Prior to the change, it gave a flat 25% damage bonus to all minions within it’s range, which in a best case scenario would exactly match the value of it’s spell slot. then it was nerfed. it is no longer capable of reaching the value of the slot it occupies, and is thus a spell without value, despite remaining mandatory for most builds due to lack of better options, which is a dismal identifier of the current state of the class.
How to fix: in line with the above argument, the bare minimum that dread shade can buff minions just to break even with the value of it’s own spell slot is 25%, and that’s BEFORE factoring in the negative modifier in the form of minion decay. following that, the minion decay ought to be removed as a default function, as it is not a player choice.

Now we move on to Wraiths
Why did the change fail? Although basing numbers around the extremes of builds is generally not a good things, failing to do so in this case would create undeniable outliers in scaling arguments, and thus we will have to look at the pre-patch damage potential of wraiths based on the 300 wraith builds and not something more sensible.
Simply put, wraiths went from 300-wraith potential to 6. and after a bit of number testing, their damage seems to have increased by ~maybe 2.5x, this means a net loss in 95% of their damage potential…
I really don’t think I need to keep explaining why this change failed, but continuing on from that, in order to make them permanent, you will have to further nerf them by 66% by going from 6 to 2 maximum wraiths (the numbers are so arbitrarily small that i have elected not to factor in the 2 extra wraiths from covenant) and in the span of nerfing them by this additional 66%, you will gain… nothing. you go from 100% uptime to 100% uptime, but now you have 1/3 the amount of wraiths. mana means nothing to a necromancer if they aren’t using it to constantly summon wraiths, so having permanent wraiths means making the character even less viable than it already is after the change.
How to fix: 2 days ago, wraiths constituted 90% of a necromancers damage easily, and now that they’ve been nerfed by 95%, Necromancers just… don’t deal damage anymore. simple as that, you’d seriously have to just give a flat 900% multiplier to all minion damage just to approach breaking even with what we were before, and if you thought that the 300-wraith build was too problematic, there were other ways to fix it than just deleting the spell from existence.

Abomination: Honestly the rationale behind this change was so baffling that I can’t even conceptualize how in any version of reality it was put through. but here we go…
Why did the change fail? Well for starters, let us review my argument on dread shade, Each spell slot as a default represents 1/5 of the players ability to deal damage and to survive through means of non-movement mechanics (since avoiding being hit is another way to survive that doesn’t inherently require spell slots) so using that argument, the Abomination needs to either: do an amount of damage representative of the necromancers potential, OR increase the damage potential of the necromancers other spell slots.
in practically any scenario that doesn’t include you taking the talent that makes the abomination not decay, this is actually true, as the abomination is able to meet up to 100% of it’s own spell slots value, without hindering the value of your other spell slots (prior to the abomination, it wasn’t even possible for one spell to actively nerf the potential of another in an exclusivity sort of way) however the problem of course appears when we evaluate the talent in question.
Put simply, being only able to consume mages and skeletons means that at best, the abomination loses 40% of it’s damage potential, which right away makes it fall short of meeting the value of it’s own spell slot, but what compounds this issue even more, is that it then goes on to limit the damage potential of at least one other mandatory spell on your bar by 100% (in this scenario, you’d always elect to summon back your 5 mages and no skeletons, as mages are generally stronger minions to have), meaning that it manages to nerf not only itself, but you as a whole. So just by taking this one talent, you’ve managed to lower your characters total potential damage from 100% to 72%, something which shouldn’t even be possible.
How to fix: The fix is actually simple, and again it’s mind-boggling to imagine what sort of mental gymnastics occurred that allowed it to be skipped over: Just change the talent to make it so that the abomination doesn’t decay… and that’s it. no hoops, no limits, no damage nerfs to itself or anything else… you’d just spend 1 talent point to go from 99% uptime (that extra 1% being the actual amount of time it takes to summon the abomination) to 100% uptime. you wouldn’t gain any damage, you wouldn’t feel worse, you wouldn’t become somehow OP, all that would change is 1% uptime and a much better feeling spell. this exact change would fix wraiths as well by the way. I said in my other post earlier today that talents are meant to increase our power, otherwise why do they exist? so let them do just that and just please, for the love of god, just please stop thinking that basic quality of life changes must be paid for in crippling blood sacrifices every time something feels bad.

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I agree with pretty much everything you have suggested. I never really played abomination so I can’t vouch for that build. But everything else i can

I only play necromancer and I hate all the changes they have made. I’ve tried wraiths skeleton and mages ranged melee some necrotic and poison builds and nothing feels like it does any type of decent damage.

Infernal shade still sucks. Dread shade that 18s cool down is ridiculous and changing it to necrotic when there’s barely any necrotic minion builds.

I mainly play it on hardcore and now It’s not viable as a hardcore character cause your not doing anywhere near the damage that they use too plus the class was already hard to stay alive in and now that feels even harder.

The necromancer should feel overpowered cause they don’t have the survivability as it goes in every other game.

They overplayed there hands way too much with these changes.

I hate the changes

there’s not much else to say about it, the summoning speed change was nice, but the decay talent was so bad that you’d literally lose less damage by not even summoning the thing.

the only part of this big post that could even be marked as hyperbole is the statement that all the damage would have to go up by 900%, which is technically still true, but that’s based on the 300 wraith build, which admittedly is a very small sub set of necromancers even before, but at the most basic level, necromancer minion damage needs to at least be doubled just to be even slightly competitive.

I’ve been playing ranged skeletons and I have to say, I hate the Dread Shade change.

If I pick just one dread shade, my minions do not reliably cluster around it. I’d guess I get 1/3 effective uptime.

It is SUCH A STRONG ABILITY STILL that I feel like I would be stupid not to use it. I wish there were viable alternatives. I kind of wish they’d nuke the ability from orbit and get rid of it! This is one of the least fun pet mechanics I’ve seen in an ARPG.

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it’s really just that later part that informs the former.
Dread shade was exactly as strong as it needed to be before, but rather than create actually good, competing options with it, they just nerfed it. then they just deleted wraiths, and if you ignore the non-decay talent on the abomination, it’s technically better off for the summoning speed changes, but that those changes used to be talents before just means that they designed it to be bad intentionally so that they could offer non-power quality options to fill out the skill tree.

This patch has been an almost exclusive assault on the necromancer, and the lack of discussion about it on this forum tells me that the game is already dying before it even had a chance to officially launch, which does not make me optimistic for the future, but maybe multiplayer will liven things up a bit.

I haven’t been around long enough to comment, but I think people are busy trying other new, fun builds.

I’ve noticed in the life cycle of ARPGs a certain truth about summoners: if they are perceived to be too strong, it makes people mad that pets can be so viable for lazy people when their own build must require 1000 IQ and 1000 APM to perform well. There will be ups and downs for the playstyle in years to come!

For the devs reading this, I think I put my finger on what makes this ability so frustrating. It relies on pet AI within pet AI. I effectively lose control of it once I unleash it because always ordering pets around isn’t viable, and also even when you order pets around they quickly unscatter from one another.

Some creative solutions if you’re so attached to the ability: let there be a node that creates a PET CLUSTER that hangs out together. Give us more control.

I’m trying to think of a similar ability in other ARPGs… most summoner abilities rely upon you targeting nothing to buff all your pets, or targeting an enemy or corpse to buff some or all of your pets. A blend of skill and convenience is out there existing already.

Dread shade, sigils of hope or anything that plays like a maintenance buff feels really bad IMHO. I really wanted to like the changes to static orb as well but the mana consumption is far too high meaning you’ll need to focus, which like other maintenance buffs, feels bad to me.

The bow mage still feels great though. I think my poison scorpion would as well, though it has no AoE clear.

Right now the skill and resource changes feel like a step forward and another back. I think the issue might be trying to focus on balance too much at this stage when the game is not even released yet. Not saying I could do better but focusing on primary damage skill variety and making it TONS of fun to play would be what I would do right now to alter the trajectory. Balance the game with increasing difficulty.

Sigils of hope made me not want to play my javelin paladin. Basically mandatory to double my damage at my gear level, yet boring to overspend mana on the boss fights.

Diablo 3 gave all classes a mega skill with a long cooldown, increasing damage and damage reduction and other features. So what does everyone do? Build to keep them up permanently or you cannot push high things. One other layer of effectively interesting build design removed.

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Maybe I try a go with a Necromancer as my next Character.

Yes!!! I criticize Dread Shade but the bones of a fun summoner playstyle is there – cool minions and decent raw pet AI, with a command button by default.

except for witch doctors and necromancers… you know, the summoners…

Big Bad Voodoo and Land of the Dead (major powered skeleton mage uptime).

When the patch was released, I leveled a new Necro.
I wanted to play the whole campaign with a class I’m familiar with.
I went for a relatively classic set: ranged skeletons with mire, ranged fire mages, fire golem and for the last slot, I hesitated. First I went with non decaying abomination, then a little while after the campaign I switched to two turret-mode wraiths.

I don’t like the loss of Ward with the Zombies. Clearly, that is a move I still don’t understand, I’ll take time to analyze it further.
Mini abomination is nice and fun, but for the campaign. In echoes, you can resummon between two echoes, so better do a full grown up abomination.
Turret wraith are still very powerful.

I was not a huge user of Dread Shade, but I’ll test it later, on another Necro, in Empowered timelines. I already feel that specifically will be painful.

She’s still low level (65, I’m testing some other classes in the same times), but she’s doing really good. I do feel bad for the loss of ward, I’m happy with the rest. Of course, I need to level up more to get further impression.

I agree with pretty much everything stated.

My 2 cents, not much just from the view of someone who has played for 5+ hours a day over the last month: I was ok with only really being able to play cold ranged minions or a few meme builds before patch, despite trying everything else and just not fully enjoying it. I saw some hype about the changes coming for other possible builds and now I feel gutted that everything else feels either the same or much worse.

Really losing some of the hype and passion I had for this game when I first started playing about a month ago now. I play mainly summoner builds in everything and currently this is the worst a summoner class has felt to me in any ARPG/MMO and I’m so frustrated with it right now that I don’t even have the motivation to level something else. And even if I did play something else, there’s no reason that Necro should feel as bad as it does.

Devs, please stop NERFING things and start creating or buffing competitive options. I’m not sure why game devs do that but it’s been proven to be a flawed way to approach balancing a game. There’s been like 10 GDC talks about it over the years.

Also please just increase minion aggro range, having to press a button to get them to attack constantly really sucks.

Are you using melee minions?
With ranged minions, no problem, they even maybe sometimes attack too far. But I haven’t played fully melee for a while…

unlike vengeance, wrath of berserker, archon, Akarat’s champion, or epiphany, those 2 spells don’t grant defense, and they don’t grant the most important factor of the other 5: CC IMMUNITY.

furthermore, they’re stationary… if we just want to count any skill with a long cooldown, most classes in D3 have 2-4 such skills, you seemed to be refering to the “super form” skills that grant cc immunity, damage, and defense.

either way, even blizzard shafted their summoners.

My issue with the wraith change is the exact same issue i had with vomit zombies. It’s a minion skill that you are/were suppose to spam, but if you spam it one click too much your minion will just go poof before it even gets to do anything. Something that doesn’t exactly feel satisfying to use, which is a shame since this game managed to make spam summoning feel a lot more satisfying that poe does.

It would probably have been better to just increase the base mana cost, reduce the cast speed or increase their decay speed instead.

i hear ya, but adding a cap was mandatory. so long as there was no cap, the entire game had no choice but to revolve around getting as many wraiths out as possible. now that there is a cap, the skill point to make them not decay should have just been a one and done quality of life improvements, but they had to go and make it nerf an already crippled ability.

for every other class, they don’t have to trade power for convenience, but for the necromancers, we have to be punished just for existing and give up power just to remove the punishment, which puts us as at a severe disadvantage to everyone else.

I am playing full melee minions, the damage is there for them but the AI is still really weak. I have to drag them into combat with me and put myself in the middle of the fight in order to get them to actually attack anything or move really slow stutter stepping and manually sending them in. There’s been cases where my screen is full of enemies and 4 or 5 of them are still standing next to me not going anything. It’s honestly funny sometimes, but other times it’s really frustrating having to micro manage that much.