My LE wish list

[DJSamhein]

@Kulze

Is that ‘disingenious’ too?

It’s disingenuous that you’re saying it’s a 100% increase when the 100% increase is from T5 to T7. But there’s an affix in the middle there.
T5 → T6 is a pretty decent bump of usually around 60-70%.
T6 → T7 is a reasonable jump in line with the rest of the affixes, usually around 30%-ish.
T7 → T8 is the one that is usually 100%, but you can only have one of those in the whole build, so that’s also acceptable.

@Kulze

In PoE that doesn’t happen that much. A T2? Pfff… who cares! More then great! T3? T4? Depending on setup they can all be fine to have on a good item!
Why? Because the power difference at the top isn’t massive, hence it does matter… but it doesn’t feel mandatory.

Not quite. If your armor drops with +15 life you immediately trash it because it’s useless. If your boots drop with less than 25% movement speed (more often 35%), then you immediately trash it because it’s useless.

There are lots of affixes where you can accept a T2 or a T3, but anything below that is unacceptable unless you’re still doing low maps.

@Kulze

Then that means you need to purely increase quality of drops, which is pure power creep…

Obviously. That is, after all, 100% what the genesis tree is in PoE this league. 100% pure power creep.

Everything that has been added to both games in over a year is 100% pure power creep.
Nemesis? Power creep. Havocs? Power creep. Primordials? Power creep. Woven? Power creep.
Genesis tree? Power creep. Kingsmarch? Power creep. Recombinator? Especially big power creep.

Only mercenaries aren’t power creep yet because they’re working on how to add them to core. But they will be.

Every new season/league in a game of this genre has to absolutely introduce power creep. Otherwise people aren’t interested in returning.

@Kulze

How would it change Nemesis? Nemesis upgrades item tiers… it doesn’t care about it being T1 or T6, the function is the same.

It’s not. The chance for an affix to roll exalted is separate to the chance of a regular affix upgrade. And it has a much lower chance.

And I didn’t even mention that it would also mean changing CoF. Ranks and prophecies would also have to be redone.

So yeah, definitely not “least work”.

@Kulze

The second GGG gets their ass up and managed to make a unified crafting UI with relatively modern functionality like ‘stop my wrist from breaking by having to click 1000 times, instead give me a option to pick stop-conditions for repeated use’ and similar things… and the second that happens LE is simply dead, forever, unrevivable.

That is a huge hyperbole and should go to the “game is d34d” wall of shame.

Even if PoE did that magical UI in a simple way (which isn’t easy to achieve since you have an extremely complex system below it), there are people that don’t like the craft/trade first approach PoE has and would prefer a drop first approach.

It’s the reason why D2 still has a very healthy playerbase despite the underlying mechanics being very outdated by now. Because there are plenty of people that like the drop only option with extremely minimal crafting.

@Kulze

Which… was mentioned by people and simply not done?
So kinda ignored despite being mentioned?

That change was made this season. Season 4 isn’t out yet. So you don’t know if it was ignored yet or not.
When season 4 comes out we’ll see if that was in or not or if it was ignored.

@Kulze

Yeah, that’s what I’m talking about, it’s a pure reduction in RNG, just as any crafting mechanic is.

Obviously. But the drop pool remains the same. And especially, the drop pool for other characters remains the same. Which was your concern.

@Kulze

You can make a point as much as you want about your own enjoyment, and agreed… there’s quite a few people which do find the direction of craftless playing nigh mandatory. But they’re a vast minority.

3 of the biggest games in the genre (outside of PoE, LE, D4) would like to disagree.
D2, TQ and GD were wildly successful and in all those games the gameplay was definitely drop based.
Crafting in GD served to round up your build with a few extra affixes only. The base item remained unchanged.
Crafting in D2 was mostly useless except for some extremely unlikely RNG results and outside of the same dozen runewords everyone uses while ignoring the 50+ other ones.

@Kulze

So a total of 20 hours of time investment for a reasonably fast player per character.
With 5 classes available.
Which each have 3 masteries.
Hence 15 times.

Which makes it 300 hours of gameplay in total.

For a live-service game to be ‘through’ and basically get no results anymore.

Mhmm… guess why the game looses tens of thousands of players peak each Cycle.

Yes, pretty much. The biggest issue with LE is a lack of things to do in endgame. You can fix gear progression all you want and everyone will still leave because there’s not enough choice or variety in endgame.
It’s all just running echoes forever and ever, you just get a few mechanics randomly thrown in there.

@Kulze

Hrmm… I guess early-game the socket setup of items is not the primary decider for usage rather then the Affixes then? Which is focused on loot-based acquisition rather then adjusting it yourself?

That is only in the first half of the campaign. And even then you’re already rerolling sockets often enough, depending on your drops.

For the most part, PoE is “Nice base drop. I already have 1, I don’t need more of them.”. Exceptions apply. But the majority of drops are useful once. After that, their value is in converting them to currency so you can craft or buy what you want.

[Llama8]

@Kulze

True, but it depends on the avenue of which you look at it. And I try to make it clear - and sometimes failing - which avenue I’m looking at it from.

So in your example I could also go ahead and look at the remaining money after outgoing payments of all kinds and find out that my annual potential savings are normally 13k… but with the new bonus it turns into 23k… which means I got nearly double the amount I can freely use for whatever.

So it always kinda depends

Exactly, it entirely depends on what part of the picture you’re looking at.

@Kulze

You forgot the little bump there though!

I was ignoring it as it’s clearly an outlier.

@Kulze

In our case we could for example add expected playtime to achieve getting close to the top-end of progression, and hence the top-end of that percentile.

In TL:I it’s 100 hours
In PoE it’s 200 hours
In LE it’s 40 hours

So suddenly in conjunction this doesn’t look quite as good anymore. LE is in above the percentile of TL:I but vastly below both TL:I and PoE.

Yeah, it looks like LE is far more respectful of a player’s time…

[Kulze]

@DJSamhein

It’s disingenuous that you’re saying it’s a 100% increase when the 100% increase is from T5 to T7. But there’s an affix in the middle there.

Umh… that’s why I stated it to be from… T5… to T7… to make the specification clear…
Much like - as @Llama8 rightfully stated - the increase would be 1327% from T1 to T7.

I mean…

Also I specifically stated not mentioning T8 as it’s a special Affix, which is why I also avoided T0 Affixes from TL:I for example.

As statet.

@DJSamhein

Not quite. If your armor drops with +15 life you immediately trash it because it’s useless.

If it has fantastic triple Suffixes I don’t.
Because I can solely multi-mod it and have a great piece of gear right away.

Also:

@DJSamhein

If your boots drop with less than 25% movement speed (more often 35%), then you immediately trash it because it’s useless.

Which showcases you know jack-shit about PoE.
Half the boots I keep in my collection don’t even have MS because they don’t need it. MS has no meaning when you got other defensive layers then avoidance of mechanics.

Also I’ll gladly pick up a 20% MS pair of boots as long as those have triple-res on em until level 95 even. Which by the way is ‘core progression done’ basically by then.

@DJSamhein

There are lots of affixes where you can accept a T2 or a T3, but anything below that is unacceptable unless you’re still doing low maps.

Yeah, because using a T1 or T2 Affix in LE works better, or a T8, T7 in TL:I?
It’s a complete nothing-burger argumentation line.

You’re completely and utterly ignoring magnitude of effect in anything you argue about, as well as the follow-up from here as well!
Yes! One’s fine, the other isn’t, because severty of action does have a very important standing. I mean… you can throw a piece of paper at someone or a hand grenade, one will be ignored at best and returning a annoyed sentence at worst commonly, the other will get you in jail for friggin murder Magnitude matters.

@DJSamhein

Obviously. That is, after all, 100% what the genesis tree is in PoE this league. 100% pure power creep.

Once more, magnitude.

LE has ramped up through power creep to nonsensical heights. And your suggestion is to add more to the unreasonable and severe problem-causing (which other companies face after 10+ years at their pace) outcomes.
So yes, obviously all’s power-creep, but there’s a distinct difference between ‘now you got 10% faster progression’, ‘now you got 15% more dps’ and what we have in LE with ‘now all the stuff beforehand is basically the entry-level and not even mid-game’.

So I dunno what you’re arguing for there, the topic wasn’t about ‘is it power creep or not’.
I really don’t get where your brain jumps around and how you repeatedly miss the damn discussion by nitpicking at nonsensical side-stuff nobody gives a shit about for the discussion at hand.
And I’m even moving in and actually answering!
You know what… outside of direct topic-related stuff I simply won’t answer then, or try to remember at least.

@DJSamhein

It’s not. The chance for an affix to roll exalted is separate to the chance of a regular affix upgrade. And it has a much lower chance.

Higher tier = higher rarity.
Yeah, upholds.
Relatively simple conversion.

@DJSamhein

there are people that don’t like the craft/trade first approach PoE has and would prefer a drop first approach.

Miniscule amount related to the grand whole.
Vast majority doesn’t mind.
Net-negative is existing for the minority.

@DJSamhein

It’s the reason why D2 still has a very healthy playerbase

The reason is because it’s a solid cohesive game, something very few games manage.
That’s all.

People play friggin Super Mario World still because it’s a well done cohesive game, but nobody plays the first Castlevania anymore because compare to all modern games of the genre it simply is not cohesively designed, too many mechanical issues.

@DJSamhein

Which was your concern.

As a part.
You didn’t get what the core concern was/is though.

Ridiculous power creep is not allowed in the current stage, it’s a make-or-break situation already there, LE cannot afford more severe issues.
Altaholic hindering is also not allowed currently as that’s the only upside the game still provides comparably to the majority of the products available currently in the genre.

Hence both options currently suck.

Which is why I suggested a risky, heavily encompassing but even power-reducing potentially option.
That’s it why I chose the example initially.

@DJSamhein

D2, TQ and GD

D2 has crafting implemented and it’s a major aspect to use the horadric cube recipes.
Dunno about TQ.
GD is actually a craft-centric game as you create the items out of base materials. You don’t adjust them… you create em. Also several of the items can only be crafted and not dropped. It’s the worst example you could bring even.

@DJSamhein

Yes, pretty much.

Then the product is fucked and we can leave right now, because it’s not a viable business venue. There are not enough people on earth with interest in this genre to allow the needed turnover rate to be sustained.

It’s a failed business hence.

@DJSamhein

That is only in the first half of the campaign.

Yeah, and instead it shifts to other aspects related to drop-importance as this is phased out gradually as you progress.

PoE is vastly more drop-centric then GD for example if you actively compare em.

@Llama8

Yeah, it looks like LE is far more respectful of a player’s time…

Yeah, we need more ‘you win’ buttons

[DJSamhein]

@Kulze

Umh… that’s why I stated it to be from… T5… to T7… to make the specification clear

Sure, but you made the point that the jump is so big that it makes it mandatory to get T7. When in fact it’s only the T5->T6 that is a bigger jump. The T6-T7 is a much smaller boost, so the only thing that is mandatory is a T6 and those are easy to get.

@Kulze

Which showcases you know jack-shit about PoE.
Half the boots I keep in my collection don’t even have MS because they don’t need it. MS has no meaning when you got other defensive layers then avoidance of mechanics.

Or it showcases that you play a different game from everyone else. People don’t want MS on their boots because they want to avoid stuff. People want MS on their boots so they can run around clearing screens faster.

With MS you clear a screen and you’re already in the next screen a second later to clear it again. Without MS you clear the screen, walk over there, clear it again, etc. It’s a much slower pace. And pace is king in PoE, since your income is also dependent on it.

@Kulze

LE has ramped up through power creep to nonsensical heights. And your suggestion is to add more to the unreasonable and severe problem-causing (which other companies face after 10+ years at their pace) outcomes.

Sure, but LE does have a scaling endgame. So it doesn’t matter if you power creep it, it will still stay relevant. It’s only the static content that gets outdated and that is only dungeons, Aby and Uby.
Dungeons can get new tiers to keep up, Aby isn’t too relevant anymore and Uby is still pinnacle content. So Aby got cycled pretty fast and they still need something to bridge the gap between Aby and Uby. But monos still stay relevant despite the power creep. You just farm 1k instead of 500c.

So the effects of rampant power creep in LE are actually much smaller than the effects of regular power creep in PoE. As seen with Harvest and as is being seen with genesis tree.

@Kulze

Higher tier = higher rarity.
Yeah, upholds.

It doesn’t. When you get a drop, there’s a chance it will roll exalted. It’s a separate roll from the rest of the affixes. It’s not simply a T6 has lower chance than T5. It’s another roll entirely that will happen before the affixes are rolled.

@Kulze

Miniscule amount related to the grand whole.

You actually don’t know how much it is because there isn’t any data on it and you’re just pulling that argument from your own ass bias.

@Kulze

The reason is because it’s a solid cohesive game, something very few games manage.
That’s all.

It’s still a drop only game. If only a minority of players likes drop only, then D2 would have been dead by now or only have a dozen people playing.

However, since it’s one of the few good ARPGs that are drop only, it stays active.

@Kulze

Ridiculous power creep is not allowed in the current stage, it’s a make-or-break situation already there, LE cannot afford more severe issues.

Actually, now is the time when LE can afford rampant power creep since the vast majority of its content is either scaling (monos and arena) or can be easily scaled to adjust to it (dungeon tiers).

Once they start introducing alternative endgame mechanics that are static in difficulty is when power creep isn’t affordable anymore.

@Kulze

D2 has crafting implemented and it’s a major aspect to use the horadric cube recipes.

Less than 1% of the builds use anything from the cube. Mostly because the only great items you can get from it require thousands of crafts to achieve. And they definitely have a fail state.
Most people don’t even use cube recipes for leveling.

And that is because runewords and uniques are so vastly superior to everything else that the benefit from a crafted item isn’t worth the dozens of hours you’ll spend crafting them.

@Kulze

GD is actually a craft-centric game as you create the items out of base materials. You don’t adjust them… you create em.

Virtually no build uses the crafted items. All of them use either the mythical sets/items, which are drop only (targetable or not) or MIs.
The crafted items are only used while leveling. And even then you usually only create the relics, unless you want a belt with +skills. Everything else is from drops, mostly MIs.

So yes, GD has items that created from scratch. And they are completely outshone by drops to such an extent that no one actually bothers with them.

@Kulze

Then the product is fucked and we can leave right now, because it’s not a viable business venue.

What it needs is what it has been needing since launch: more endgame mechanics. Preferably alternative ones that don’t require monos.
Woven improved monos, but it’s still grinding echoes over and over again, so we need more separate stuff to do.

As I said, you can improve gear progression until it’s perfect (whatever that means), but if you don’t have more varied endgame players will still leave after 20-30h because it gets monotonous.

@Kulze

PoE is vastly more drop-centric then GD for example if you actively compare em.

Not for endgame, it isn’t. Not only is GD 99% about drops in endgame, PoE is 99% about crafting (or buying crafted stuff) in endgame.

The excitment of drops in PoE are always related to how valuable they are so you can sell them and convert into currency so you can actually craft/buy the stuff you need.

You even see this watching streamers. They get a ding and they don’t normally go “wow, this is a great drop for my character or for the next one I’ll make”. They instead go “wow, this is worth a lot so now we can buy the item we actually want”.

So yes, PoE has loot drops. But those drops are only worth however much currency you can convert them into. Very rarely will a drop be worth something to your character directly.
If you changed valuable drops into divines based on your filter, most people wouldn’t even notice it and would likely even prefer it.

[Kulze]

@DJSamhein

Sure, but you made the point that the jump is so big that it makes it mandatory to get T7.

Yeah, because the individual differences are massive, which is why it gets to 100% in 2 tiers cumulatively?
I mean, wouldn’t be able to if it weren’t high.
We’re talking above 30% per step here, while the competition dimples at a third per step at the last ones.

That makes the range of tiers even if not perfect far more viable and opens up more potential combinations which can be miniscule upgrades or simply a ‘good item’ overall. While in LE the differences are massive for every tier even at the top-end.

That’s the major problem.

@DJSamhein

With MS you clear a screen and you’re already in the next screen a second later

Movement skills are a alternative to MS. Leap Slam or shield charge especially for example as they don’t have charges.
Those two cover nearly all attack based ‘melee’ skills as they use attack speed, the second is usable with ES as well since you’re generally using a ES shield.

Those 2 archetype directions cover a vast amount of builds already.

@DJSamhein

Sure, but LE does have a scaling endgame.

Yep, the scale is just too high.

And the notion of ‘it does stay relevant even with powercreep’ is a factually wrong statement, In any game.
It reduces the whole size of the game to monoliths, which is a failing setup by design, too much pure repetition without breakups.

@DJSamhein

It’s a separate roll from the rest of the affixes.

Irrelevant, literally.
That’s the same principle as any rarity roll. Just different style of execution. Tiered one.

@DJSamhein

You actually don’t know how

Gotta be kinda blind to not realize it.
Just sayin.
Look at the games doing well and those which do not. Then check on the systems and which seem to impact it the most by general notion of anyone talking about the game.
Then you got your answer with a high chance.

@DJSamhein

It’s still a drop only game.

It has crafting, so factually wrong.
It just extremely heavily leans into drops.

@DJSamhein

Less than 1% of the builds use anything from the cube.

In the base game it’s a very big aspect until the pure end-game grind starts.
In LoD (which is what everyone plays) we got runewords, which is reliant on the cube already to acquire the runes. Pure drops aren’t reliable there for the exact combinations often. Not to speak of socketing, removing stuff from sockets or at times creating high quality gear. Also creation of high quality rares with stones of jordan for end-game.

So nah, doesn’t uphold, you just don’t use em.

@DJSamhein

Virtually no build uses the crafted items.

Relics for example. Most are craft-only.
Ya running around without one?

If you look at some ‘top builds’ lists we have for example included:
Eye of Storm
Chillflame evoker.
Nidalla’s Outbreak
Mythical Sapphire of Elemental Balance
Conduit of Destructive Whispers
Mythical Ruby of elemental Balance
Mythical Bloodrage Cowl
Avenger’s Armor
Mythical Windshear Greaves.

Yeah… I’ll stop there, that’s half-way through the third of a top-20 list.
Suffices for my point. Just a wrong statement.

@DJSamhein

more endgame mechanics.

Sure! Which you invalidate with your power creep that doesn’t matter as they won’t scale properly along, and if you build em that way then they feel generic. If not and you put em to the side it’s solely item fishing and feels completely lackluster like Dungeons otherwise.

Balance is a shit-show simply.

@DJSamhein

Not for endgame, it isn’t

Especially there.

[DJSamhein]

@Kulze

And the notion of ‘it does stay relevant even with powercreep’ is a factually wrong statement, In any game.
It reduces the whole size of the game to monoliths, which is a failing setup by design, too much pure repetition without breakups.

Except it doesn’t. The only thing it does is trivialize campaign (which was trivial to start with).
Both monos and arena are scaling.
And the only thing left is dungeons, which have tiers, so they can be increased/adjusted to keep up.

There is literally nothing else in the game.

@Kulze

We’re talking above 30% per step here, while the competition dimples at a third per step at the last ones.

No, we’re talking about around 70% for the first step only. That’s the huge jump. T6->T7 is around the usual 30%.
So if anything is mandatory it’s the T6, not the T7.

@Kulze

Irrelevant, literally.
That’s the same principle as any rarity roll. Just different style of execution. Tiered one.

It’s not irrelevant, it’s another change that has to be made.
Not to mention CoF, which I also said would have to be changed as well, both for ranks and for prophecies.

It’s just not an easy fix as you make it out to be.

@Kulze

Look at the games doing well and those which do not.

Which ones do not? Do you have an example of an ARPG that leaned into drop only and failed because of it?

The reason why we barely have drop only now is because PoE suceeded with craft based gameplay and everyone copied them.
There have been no major attempts at doing drop only, successful or otherwise, until LE.

@Kulze

It has crafting, so factually wrong.
It just extremely heavily leans into drops.

I guess FF VII is a racing game then. It has racing, after all, it just leans heavily into RPG.

Crafting is only relevant in GD for adding affixes to your gear. It could have been a tattoo or simply a line in your character sheet and nothing would change.
The base item remains the same. That’s not crafting. Crafting is altering your drop into something useful/powerful where it previously wasn’t.

@Kulze

In the base game it’s a very big aspect until the pure end-game grind starts.
In LoD (which is what everyone plays) we got runewords, which is reliant on the cube already to acquire the runes.

1- So it had crafting and they felt the need to remove it’s importance?
2- The good runewords can’t be done with cube upgrading since you’d need thousands of them (and of gems in their various tiers) to get there. The way you get them is through trading or being lucky to get a drop. Almost noone in the history of D2 upgraded gems all the way to Jah or Ber.

@Kulze

Relics for example. Most are craft-only.

Yes, relics are the exception, like I said.

@Kulze

If you look at some ‘top builds’ lists we have for example included:

So your definition of a craft based game (one that you argued was much more craft based than PoE) is that in the top 20 builds you have, on average, less than 2 slots out of 14 that are crafted?

And this after arguing on another thread that GD is more drop based than LE because you have to actually go collect all the ingredients?

Seems like you should pick a lane.

Just because a game has a small aspect to it doesn’t mean that becomes the game. PoE isn’t a tower defense game, even though one of the mechanics is tower defense.

@Kulze

Sure! Which you invalidate with your power creep that doesn’t matter as they won’t scale properly along, and if you build em that way then they feel generic.

Which is why I said that power creep, for now, is acceptable and when it can happen with minimal consequences. Once you start adding other static stuff, then you need to reign in said power creep.

@Kulze

Especially there.

Endgame in PoE is mostly running whichever mechanic you like better/your build does better so you can get valuable drops to sell so you can get currency to either craft (on bases that you usually buy and don’t chase yourself) or buy stuff with.
And doing it especially fast/effectively, because the sooner you sell the stuff, the more they’re worth. If you’re not fast/efficient enough, they will lose their value over time (unless you’re farming harder and more specialized content like Ubers).

Endgame in PoE is specializing in 1-2 things you do pretty well and focus only on them so you can buy the other stuff you need and doesn’t drop in the content you’re running.
Even streamers say that the only way to actually get currency in PoE is specializing in a mechanic.

So the value of drops in PoE, most especially in endgame, is only the value of how much it can sell for. Not what you yourself can use it for.

[Kulze]

@DJSamhein

The only thing it does is trivialize campaign

We have a end-game mechanic with endless scaling.
We have side content which isn’t endlessly scaling or has a different scaling methodology which isn’t upholding to the same measure as the monolith scaling. Doesn’t matter if more or less.

This creates disparity in return. Hence as one gets more the others become valued less.

Which is why I stated in several threads already ‘exclusive drops for unique content’ rather then scaling mechanics.

@DJSamhein

There is literally nothing else in the game.

And there won’t be if it’s upheld since you cannot add anything reasonably this way.

@DJSamhein

T6->T7 is around the usual 30%.

Exactly what I said, thanks for repeating literally what I wrote I guess?
And competition has 10% at that stage comparatively.

So a third.

@DJSamhein

Which ones do not? Do you have an example of an ARPG that leaned into drop only and failed because of it?

I specifically said ‘parts’ and included written out overall notion. Dunno what you’re going with there again, was included already.

@DJSamhein

I guess FF VII is a racing game then.

When you play the chocobo races it indeed is
Welcome to hybrid genres!

@DJSamhein

Crafting is only relevant in GD for adding affixes to your gear.

Factually wrong, stated in my last post why.

@DJSamhein

1- So it had crafting and they felt the need to remove it’s importance?

What?
It added stuff.

@DJSamhein

2- The good runewords can’t be done with cube upgrading

Not? You cannot use 3 of the former runes at the top-end anymore? You know… when you got 3 of the former but miss 1 of the above which you need?

Never heard of that.

@DJSamhein

Yes, relics are the exception, like I said.

You said nothing about that. And they’re also not ‘the exception’. They’re just basically 100% reliant on that while the other slots are a… 20/80 spread roughly I would say?

@DJSamhein

is that in the top 20 builds you have, on average, less than 2 slots out of 14 that are crafted?

2 1/2 builds, stopped after.
9 crafted items.
Means 3,5 crafted items per build.
With 14 slots per character.
Which makes it 25% crafted in total.

@DJSamhein

And this after arguing on another thread that GD is more drop based than LE because you have to actually go collect all the ingredients?

Well, I went in with your definition of ‘craft based’ versus ‘drop based’ and had a short argumentation related to ‘which is which’.
So yes, obviously the outcome is different.

@DJSamhein

PoE isn’t a tower defense game, even though one of the mechanics is tower defense.

If you’re playing primarily Blight with the node that changes tower power and removes your own to basically ‘0’ then yes… it indeed becomes for you a tower-defense game.

@DJSamhein

Endgame in PoE is mostly running whichever mechanic you like better/your build does better so you can get valuable drops to sell so you can get currency to either craft (on bases that you usually buy and don’t chase yourself) or buy stuff with.

Yes, that’s called ‘variety’ and ‘player agency’.
Since you have the choice of which to use unless you go SSF, which enforces usage depending on what you need to progress.

Well realized I guess?

@DJSamhein

Endgame in PoE is specializing in 1-2 things you do pretty well

Sure, some do.
And then there’s those like me which switch every day one of the 3 Atlas trees for another one, rotating through to whatever I want to do at the moment.

Why? Cause I can and cause it doesn’t really reduce my returns, keeps it fun though.

Player agency and choice, a lovely thing to have in a game!

@DJSamhein

So the value of drops in PoE, most especially in endgame, is only the value of how much it can sell for. Not what you yourself can use it for.

Oh? Really?
I mean… I run Harvest for the Sacred Lifeforce since I want to get specific synth bases. Selling whatever else falls on is a bonus.
I run Delve since I like the bosses, what’s on the way is a bonus simply, and sometimes something valuable drops actually.
I run heist for the bases, the bubblegum dropping along the way is just a nice bonus.
I run Harvest for the crafting omens, white sockets for example. All the other stuff is nice as an extra.
I run Harbinger for the fracturing orbs, since I want to get myself 2 small clusters with very specific rolls. Nice to get the other currency though along the way!
I run Delirium for the cluster jewels, whatever else drops is also a bonus simply.

And sure, I also got the generic setups… like a gold farming one for recombination (which I’m currently doing) or one for generic currency drops like strongboxes… albeit to be fair, that’s a double effect since I love divination card collecting and opening, so I do that a lot.

You see, I personally run stuff with intent behind it, the extra accumulating things I don’t need is the stuff I sell, because one man’s trash is another man’s treasure.

Just because you lack the mindset or the ability to do so doesn’t mean you can simply reduce it to this because it fits your narrative of ‘PoE bad because it has a decent focus on trade’.
Forego it, play friggin SSF, people get top-tier builds in SSF without issue. I’m instead a Standard player, love collecting, got nearly every possible combination of flasks existing in the game stored in my Stash for example, double T1 ones. Why? Cause I love doing that stuff, and the game gives me the option to actually go for it without ridiculous effort invested. Happens on the side.

[DJSamhein]

You know, I think I figured out why we always disagree on this and why our discussions tend to never end.

You, dislike LE at its core and want LE to be a different game. Thus your fixes are always about removing what is in the game and doing something else entirely that has nothing to do with the philosophy of the game.

Whereas I like LE at its core and want it to stay the same game. Thus my fixes are about addressing gaps in the current needs.

I don’t think we’ll ever find common ground because you want a very different game from what I want.

[Kulze]

I don’t care about LE at the core currently. I don’t want LE to ‘go under’ completely though. It’s worthwhile to have competition which does a variety of things on the market, and there’s too little of that.

Hence I pitch stuff which is safe and keeps it afloat, even at the cost of my or your enjoyment of the game. I would at least enjoy to see it being ‘done’ in a halfway decent state.

And yes, we want different games, that’s obvious. Doesn’t mean we cannot find common ground on specific points. I mean… we both agree MG isn’t done properly yet. We agree CoF needs adjustments to incorporate the missing things not handled yet.
We agree on quite a few things.

This topic here for example is obvious why we won’t agree. You’re coming from the premise of it being fine to have extreme RNG in the game, as well as hefty power-creep.
The RNG is no matter for you personally since you play for the exact moment to moment gameplay, the combat, the variety of builds (which could need some love definitely, but that’s another topic).
The power-creep isn’t affecting you since you don’t need to care about is as you won’t get into the min-max range and hence even feel the drought of success there.

So yeah, it’s rather obvious.

I’m of the position that there’s options available long-term which can include both those wanting to play the game for friggin 500 hours on a single character without feeling like basically nothing at all happens… while also allowing those switching builds without any want or the opposite of want to engage with severe crafting mechanics and/or trade.

But for that there still need to be fundamental changes happening, because yeah… now you are ok-ish with the game, because it caters to your quite hefty minority (it’s uncommon for the success aspect and the competitive notion to not exist at all psychologically). I would love to see others included as well long-term… but that means it’ll be a guaranteed drought for you for a while.

Product’s already failing… the question is solely if you’re willing to go through shitty times until something proper is set up which actually works (as the current one clearly doesn’t, or the company wouldn’t be failing and regularly loosing people) or if you’d rather keep it ‘as is’ and be content with this state of the game forever forward.

It seems the ‘content’ aspect is reached for you, so yeah, no incentive for the risk.

[DJSamhein]

@Kulze

Product’s already failing… the question is solely if you’re willing to go through shitty times until something proper is set up which actually works (as the current one clearly doesn’t, or the company wouldn’t be failing and regularly loosing people) or if you’d rather keep it ‘as is’ and be content with this state of the game forever forward.

Ever since 1.0 I’ve said that EHG could shut down the servers and I’d still be playing LE for a long time. I still feel that way and I enjoy the game more now than I did at 1.0.

So yeah, I’d rather it stay the same than change into a game I don’t enjoy like PoE or TLI.

If LE does change its gameplay philosophy the most likely scenario is that I either stop playing or I stop updating it and stick to offline with the game in a state I enjoy.

@Kulze

(it’s uncommon for the success aspect and the competitive notion to not exist at all psychologically).

Not really. I play games to relax and have fun. I don’t need to compete with anyone, not even with myself.
If a game is fun, I keep playing, even if I never “finish” it. If a game isn’t fun, I stop playing and I don’t bother finishing it.
Fun is all that matters when playing a game for me. Nothing else. Whether I finish it or not is irrelevant.

[Kulze]

And that’s where we have it.
Yep, content with it.

Generally people are not though, game’s not even finished, hence obviously people want it to be fixed up.

For you that’s a risk, so you talk against it, obviously. Understandably.

But makes it very clear where you stand after all, you’re simply against any major changes as it could risk your status quo.

As for the way you play… I mean… that’s not really a ‘cozy’ game, the common thing is to have a form of success against some form of challenge That’s usually more leaning to when people play any form of ‘cozy game’ instead, not so much a looter ARPG.

[DJSamhein]

@Kulze

As for the way you play… I mean… that’s not really a ‘cozy’ game, the common thing is to have a form of success against some form of challenge That’s usually more leaning to when people play any form of ‘cozy game’ instead, not so much a looter ARPG.

I still have goals. They’re just more relaxed because fun is the main point. So currently in LE my goal is usually 500c and beating Aby. Which is something I can do without having to grind too hard for.

Because the problem with min-max is that it’s not fun. It feels like a job. And I barely have time to play these days, I don’t want to have a job after I stop working on my job. I tried that in PoE and that is what led me to burning out.

So I’d rather have a reasonably achievable goal and have fun getting there, than to have a very hard goal and just grind away until my fingers bleed.
What I enjoy in ARPGs is simply the drop aspect of it and the trying out different builds. Not having the l33333t3st gear and being able to kill pinnacle bosses with a sneeze.

[Kulze]

For you.
My motivation is reaching close to perfectionism. Be it in games or in real life.
It’s why I picked up marquetry and I’m teaching myself gradually woodcarving. Things which are detail-oriented.

For games? Optimized setups in Factorio. Huge functionally designed buildings in Minecraft in survival mode. Chisel-design in Vintage Story. Rolling items in PoE or farming up more currency along the way to get more great items gradually.

As long as there’s a visible steady progress of some sort it works out. If yesterday was not as far along as today then it means I’m content. That parts sadly missing at the top-end of LE quite a bit.

[DJSamhein]

@Kulze

For you.

Well, yes. Obviously I’m talking about how I feel about games. I know plenty of people feel differently. I mean, there are plenty of people that make a living out of playing games competitively. I expect it’s definitely not about the fun for them either, to reach that level of competition.

[Kulze]

You would be surprised actually!

Sure, there’s some which do it for the money… but like in any craft… to become the best of the best you gotta love it, otherwise you won’t put as much effort into it. Well… or you got a specific mental condition, but not getting into that further, would be too off-topic.

[DJSamhein]

Yes, I know that. But you know what I meant. To make sure they stay in top condition, they have to prepare constantly. They will train hard and often deeply analyzing their performance in a way that definitely isn’t relaxing.

But masochists exist as well (no kink shaming), so there might be people that have no fun in doing it and that gives them pleasure.