More Multiplayer Musings

[rittchard]

…and I’m back! I took a two month jaunt into New World (and currently FFXIV) while patiently watching for Last Epoch news in my Discord feed. Other things aside, the new patch really sounds fantastic. In particular I can’t wait to try out the new Druid and crafting systems…

That said, watching Amazon and Blizzard suffer through one issue after another the last two months made me wonder just what EHG’s standard for MP release is. This is just me thinking to myself, but the biggest names in the business couldn’t get it done, so is EHG’s goal/standard to do better than them? Certainly a noble goal, but is it realistic?

Anyway, I’m just going to throw the below points out there to open up discussion. I suspect a lot of people will want to defend EHG and/or disagree with my ideas, but I still think it’s worth debating, particularly given the complaints I read about MP not coming out in 2021.

1. FOCUS FOCUS FOCUS ON MP

While the last two patches have been loaded with content, I still maintain this is almost a disservice to the overall development. Why? Because if you think of the current cycle as still “in testing”, and MP truly as a (future) CORE system, it just means every bit of this content will need to be re-tested with MP in place. It’s ultimately loading more and more additional work onto a team which already has limited resources. Not to mention the amount of hype and energy being put into “releasing” the patch, to me feels more like an expansion of an already released game. I appreciate the efforts on the one hand, but also feel it may be draining resources on the other.

I’ve said it before, but if I had any say in development, I would lock everything down (except maybe things like artwork and music, etc) and have everyone able to, put other things aside and focus on getting MP “ready” (whatever that means). If this game is truly serious about being a MP game, and it sure sounds like it, it needs to be tested on a larger scale starting LAST YEAR. Since we can’t actually go back in time, then still the sooner the better…

2. INCREASE SCALE TESTING (WITH NDA) NOW NOW NOW

I keep hearing this tired old excuse about being afraid of reputation hits. Well that’s what an NDA is for. Keep the numbers down to something manageable and have some serious NDAs in place if you are really that afraid of fallout.

But I would also offer that given what I’ve seen in New World and D2R, some negative press is not the end of the world if your game is good enough. And frankly I have faith that THIS game is indeed good enough. I feel like the developers are proceeding like they are paralyzed by fear, and speaking as someone who has made many life choices that way, I don’t think it’s healthy, and in their case, really not necessary. So what if the first few attempts at larger scale MP bring crash bugs, or we can’t login due to a 5 hour queue? That was New World’s release for the first two weeks. Then two months of bugs on top of other bugs, NW is really still in beta, but people still love it because it has some really good core systems and gameplay in place.

While I don’t condone or encourage this kind of “release”, it seems like it’s just incredibly hard to figure out what a ton of people are going to do to a game. And that’s precisely why you need to test with the most amount of people you can, sooner rather than later. In EHG’s case they can still do it with NDA protection if they want to.

3. DON’T BE SHY TO ASK FOR MORE MONEY

This is kind of dumb and may be controversial, but I thought I’d say it anyway. I love this game and I believe in these developers. If for some reason they need, say another $50k to get MP testing rolling, feel free to charge me and 499 other volunteers $100 each to be your guinea pigs. UNDER NDA. I’m pretty sure you’ll have enough takers.

P.S. Please don’t get mad at me and eliminate my submission to be a tester.

[Jerle]

@rittchard

another $50k to get MP testing rolling

I think at EHG’s current scale… we’re probably easily looking at 6-7 figure operations

[Shtrak]

@rittchard

INCREASE SCALE TESTING (WITH NDA) NOW NOW NOW

How can you know they’re not already doing so? Maybe they are and, just because of the NDA, we don’t know. They selected a batch of players, said “if we sign this NDA, we can talk”, then “and now that you’ve signed, here’s another NDA for being a tester”. This way, we would not know.

Joke aside, I totally agree with you. But I also trust them and I’m pretty sure they’re aware of all this. As for the third point, they would probably do that by offering the Creator Pack again.

[Llama8]

@rittchard

While the last two patches have been loaded with content, I still maintain this is almost a disservice to the overall development. Why? Because if you think of the current cycle as still “in testing”, and MP truly as a (future) CORE system, it just means every bit of this content will need to be re-tested with MP in place. It’s ultimately loading more and more additional work onto a team which already has limited resources.

Out of curiosity, if things had been done differently, like, say, PoE & MP had been worked on first & “released”/made active but with zero content, do you think that would have gone well? And any content released after MP will have to be tested in MP & SP anyway so that doesn’t really change much. Plus, I did ask something similar last year & they said that only changes related to mp/sp would need to be tested in both modes, that skills work, mobs die, etc isn’t a specific challenge to mp/sp that needs to be tested in both modes as such.

@rittchard

But I would also offer that given what I’ve seen in New World and D2R, some negative press is not the end of the world if your game is good enough. And frankly I have faith that THIS game is indeed good enough. I feel like the developers are proceeding like they are paralyzed by fear, and speaking as someone who has made many life choices that way, I don’t think it’s healthy, and in their case, really not necessary. So what if the first few attempts at larger scale MP bring crash bugs, or we can’t login due to a 5 hour queue? That was New World’s release for the first two weeks. Then two months of bugs on top of other bugs, NW is really still in beta, but people still love it because it has some really good core systems and gameplay in place.

True, but Amazon/Blizzard are a teeny smidge larger than EHG & have the cash to cope with a, hopefully, short term of “bad press” before things get worked out & pick up again. I don’t think that New World/D2R are as comparable to EHG/LE as people think.

[Llama8]

If only they had publicly available accounts to nose through… GGG’s are interesting.

[Kedanor]

As I understood it, MultiPlr already is out for and available for Last Epoch. To me personally, MP is just that, MP, and that is it. For those who likes it, it is great. For those who really doesn´t play that much MP, it becomes more or less like just meehh.

MP fo rme is playing once and a while together with other people in a griup for a little time. For me personally, that means 5% of all my gaming for this genre of game.
I played MP in Diablo 2, Diablo 3, Path of Exile, Grim Dawn, Titan Quest and a few others even. But in reality I play WAY more alone then I ever play in MP. So in that aspect, SinglePlr part is way more important for me then MP ever is and will be.
In fact SinglePlr part is in fact the part that in reality is bringing me back to the game even years after release. So yes, it is easily 95% of all of the gaming. That is truly the part and thing that is the deciding factor for me in all of this genre.

[Llama8]

@Kedanor

As I understood it, MultiPlr already is out for and available for Last Epoch.

No, it’s still in testing with the devs.

[Neokortex]

@rittchard

INCREASE SCALE TESTING (WITH NDA) NOW NOW NOW

Here I had to smile, thank you.

[XLVI_carpo]

@Kedanor

For those who really doesn´t play that much MP, it becomes more or less like just meehh.

I don’t see, why liking or not liking MP should have a connection with the time spent in or with a game.

[rittchard]

I hate repeating myself, but it sounds like some players still associate “Multiplayer” with just the simple act of 4 players playing together simultaneously in a party. Yes, of course, that is a core function, but if you have kept up with the developers’ goals, the full “server authoritative” MP would be a lot more than that, something closer to maybe Path of Exile or Guild Wars 2 where players can interact with each other in active areas, and then group up and play the game instanced. That also means a full global MP economy, which adds huge amounts of complexity to balance. I’m not pretending to understand all of the complexities, but I’ve played enough of all these games to understand there is a massive difference in MP complexity between a game like Grim Dawn and one that Last Epoch is aiming to be.

If they have already started larger scale MP testing (and by this I mean beyond just the original set of Community Testers which I think someone said was around 50 people?) under NDA, then that’s great! But… I suspect this would have been announced, or maybe there’s an announcement upcoming soon, in which case I will gladly keep my mouth shut once it’s made lol.

[Llama8]

@rittchard

the original set of Community Testers which I think someone said was around 50 people?)

It’s nowhere near 50 people.

[AndrewTilley]

There’ll be a multiplayer progress update releasing soon so perhaps that’ll contain further information to ease your mind.

Source: Discord Link

[rittchard]

Hahaha I should have just waited one day!!! The November update pretty much addressed everything, and I appreciate the statement below in particular as it’s been kind of a pet peeve for me from an efficiency standpoint.

@EHG_Stanzwar

Over the course of the next period of time, we are looking to merge our single player and multiplayer processes so we can put the entirety of our team on the multiplayer release of Last Epoch.