Mana regeneration

[Heavy]

@utmosey

I have argued with you specifically many times in the past because you are a massive last epoch shill that thinks everything is perfect.

Ok, I have no clue what a shill is, but I am sure I never said everything is perfect.
I usually try steer discussions into a certain direction, so we can have a more specific discussion about certain things and not some very broad game design philosophy sessions, which usually don’t bring much constructive feedback.
Your OP was very much focused on mana regeneration, but you also specifically said you are playing a marksman.

@utmosey

i also saw that you started replying to my post within seconds which would make sense considering you totally didnt read the part that i am aware that i will be using a mana gaining and mana spending skill…thats literally my build

I totally did read your post and understood it.

@utmosey

my point is no matter how much mana regeneration you stack in the best case scenario will save you ONE mana gaining skill ( something like casting 3 mana gaining skills in arow instead of casting 4) thats not enough gain to warrant missing out of 5 prefix slots. especially considering my math was done with perfect tier 7 rolls on each.

This seems to be a very specific issue with your specific build.
Just going from 8 to 10-12 mana/s with 1 or 2 affix slots can be a massive difference already.

Also in practice you will never constantly attacking and you need to reposition and evade skills. In these short downtimes mana regeneratio nworks wonders.

Mana regeneration also generally speaking is teh “weakest” form ouf mana generation, but its passive. You don’t need to do anything for it.

@utmosey

not once did i say i should have infinite…

And I didn’t imply that you said that.

@utmosey

try and understand it. when i clearly say in my post ( multiple times ) that i am using a mana gaining skill and a mana spender do you really have to give me a paragraph telling me how i should be doing that exact thing ? or how the build should play?

But that is my point, you are using a passive that totally incentivices this playstyle (having a spender and filler).

@utmosey

before you say the " solution " is in the passive maybe actually play the game and test it first

I never said this is the “solution”

@utmosey

because i can assure you i have spent 10+ hours in the build planner and dozens more at level 100 with the build trying to make it work.

The problem with mana regeneration in particular is, that on paper it often doesn’t sound or look good, because you very often calculate with unrealistic uptimes.

There are always gaps between mob packs, phases were yo udon’t constantly attack, dodge attacks etc.
These are very hard to predict on paper.

@utmosey

the tools they give you are not enough where as other builds dont even have to think about this stuff

And this is why I specifically asked if you think this is a Marksman Issue or a general Last Epoch issue?

Because I think Last Epoch doesn’t have a general Mana Issue.

Does Marksman have mana issues? Maybe? But I would also argue that Marksman is a very mediocre mastery for mana regeneration. Marksman has many many otehr tools for mana management, very different compared to some other classes.

[utmosey]

huge epoch fan but i said what needs to be said. there are a few people on these forums like heavy who most likely have been a net positive for the community over their 5000 forum replies ( i thank you ) but there is a massive amount of negative they bring as well. nothing is perfect literally nothing in anything in life so to try and assume something is just because you like it alot is not good. when someone proposes a change to something in the " feedback and suggestions " what is the purpose of replying just to try frame every thing like there is nothing that needs to be changed. if heavy spent even half the time he spends replying on the forums to actually playing the game his opinion would change… fact

[Shrukn]

@utmosey

massive amount of negative they bring as well. nothing is perfect literally nothing in anything in life so to try and assume something is just because you like it alot is not good. when someone proposes a change to something in the " feedback and suggestions "

Yeah, theres a few here ie LLama who dissect your entire post for some reason, we didnt leave feedback for them. they are not devs

Grim Dawn was the same, mega white knights who would aggressively attack you ‘legally’ on the forums for stating Block was too powerful for example. eventually you get nasty back or just give up

[Heavy]

@utmosey

nothing is perfect literally nothing in anything in life so to try and assume something is just because you like it alot is not good.

Nobody said everything is perfect.

@utmosey

when someone proposes a change to something in the " feedback and suggestions " what is the purpose of replying just to try frame every thing like there is nothing that needs to be changed.

My main goal here was actually to try and discuss what exact issue you were having, so we can possibly find a solution.

Because you presented a potential issue from your perspective, but you also didn’t suggest anything specific to “solve” that issue.

I understood your post as: “Mana regeneration is bad, please buff it”
And I tried to understand where this is coming from, so we could have a more specific discussion about it.

I just think, that critiquing mana regeneration in general on a class, that doesn’t have a lot of support for this stat and has a lot of different tools for mana management is a bad foundation for a discussion.

I would rather discuss if some of these tools, that are already there might not be good enough? Like Shift or Sapping Strikes

[utmosey]

@Heavy

@utmosey

because i can assure you i have spent 10+ hours in the build planner and dozens more at level 100 with the build trying to make it work.

The problem with mana regeneration in particular is, that on paper it often doesn’t sound or look good, because you very often calculate with unrealistic uptimes.

There are always gaps between mob packs, phases were yo udon’t constantly attack, dodge attacks etc.
These are very hard to predict on paper.

youre doing that thing again… where you dont read and absorb the information. " dozens more at level 100 with the build " implying i have played plenty with it and the " downtimes of dodging " STILL dont outweigh the huge mana costs the build use.

@Heavy

@utmosey

before you say the " solution " is in the passive maybe actually play the game and test it first

I never said this is the “solution”

oh?

@Heavy

This is a very build defining passive, that really changes how your want to build your character. If you active decide to use this, that is on you. This passive already gives you a “solution” to the downsides. It incentivices a very active playstyle where you swap between a spender and a filler(mana generator).

@Heavy

Does Marksman have mana issues? Maybe? But I would also argue that Marksman is a very mediocre mastery for mana regeneration. Marksman has many many otehr tools for mana management, very different compared to some other classes.

i guess i should have worded it better but ive played every class and probably 70% of all the main stream builds and dozens of home brews and ive never had issues with mana. all the other classes have a very straight forward approach to dealing with the resource issues… so much so that i wanted to go the other way with it… I WANT a build where im stating for mana and mana regen on pieces as a marksman. if they didnt want a build to use the mana increasing talents then why are they on the rogue and marksmen a class which has problems with it? my whole point from the beginning is most classes dont even have to put one thought into their resource management and it just works… if my attack consumes 50 mana a shot instead of 0 because i built that way fine… if i have to use mana gainers to gain that back fine. but why is a tier 7 mana regeneration prefix only 55% and better yet why is it even a prefix at all. it just makes more sense to have to make a choice over health, resists, and other secondary stats on suffix’s . why are they punishing the the >5% builds that actually struggle to use the mana stat

[EHG_Mike]

The system automatically deleted that post because you’re posting so many large posts as a “new user”. I restored it.

Edit: I do want to add that I have read all of this post very carefully and I haven’t been swayed at all to increase the mana regen yet. I don’t want to squash your enthusiasm for the topic but I need better arguments to consider it.

Edit 2: You might find more success advocating for specific skills or nodes to be changed to accommodate specific play patterns better but the mana regen affix itself is very very unlikely to be increased significantly. I’m also pretty sure that we are about to increase it in 0.9 but I think that you’re already going off the new datamined numbers.

[Heavy]

@utmosey

@Heavy

@utmosey

before you say the " solution " is in the passive maybe actually play the game and test it first

I never said this is the “solution”

oh?

@Heavy

This is a very build defining passive, that really changes how your want to build your character. If you active decide to use this, that is on you. This passive already gives you a “solution” to the downsides. It incentivices a very active playstyle where you swap between a spender and a filler(mana generator).

That “solution” is refering to something entirely differently.

From your OP is Just wasn’t sure if you use Mana Warp or not.
But if you do, then complaining about mana generation seems odd.

If you don’t use that passive, the complaint is definitely more grounded.

@utmosey

i guess i should have worded it better but ive played every class and probably 70% of all the main stream builds and dozens of home brews and ive never had issues with mana. all the other classes have a very straight forward approach to dealing with the resource issues…

That is good info and gives us a much better playing field for discussion.

@utmosey

I WANT a build where im stating for mana and mana regen on pieces as a marksman. if they didnt want a build to use the mana increasing talents then why are they on the rogue and marksmen a class which has problems with it?

Because every class or mastery has some A-Typical passives or skills.
It enough to spark some ideas, but the players need to come up with some creative solutions to support this.
Another such example would be examples would be Fire Damage Acolyte.

Also the biggest point of Mana Marksman is probably the combination of Ethereal Arrows + Mana Warp for a Mana focused Detonating Arrow (DA has a node that makes it consume maximum mana for extra damage, based on the mana consumed).

So just because that particular node doesn’t fit with your current build doesn’t make it completely obsolete. It is always nice to have some niche things available in the skill and passive trees.

[utmosey]

@EHG_Mike

I do want to add that I have read all of this post very carefully and I haven’t been swayed at all to increase the mana regen yet. I don’t wan to squash your enthusiasm for the topic but I need better arguments to consider it.

i think moving it to suffix is the best option… i think it just makes more sense to choose between other secondary stats over mana and regen and i dont think you would have to increase it much if any then.

i think there is untapped potential in the mana warp, coated blades , ethereal arrows nodes that could make for some really fun builds using alot of different skills from marksman but right now the drawbacks are HEAVY ( as they should be ).

Im trying to make cinder strike spender / multishot gainer work and its very close but it doesnt seem like the positives out weight the insane mana requirements ( its sooo close )
not to cherry pick for my build specifically but i think dark quiver could be the answer if the resolve node in the dark quiver tree gave more than 2 mana per arrow per point it would be interesting and i dont see how it would break the game. 4 passive points invested to get up to 8 mana per arrow walked over seemed like a tiny amount of mana especially considering i would most likely have to take all the arrow generating talents as well to have more to walk on.

[utmosey]

@Heavy

From your OP is Just wasn’t sure if you use Mana Warp or not.
But if you do, then complaining about mana generation seems odd.

i am using mana warp but with it its still not enough to reasonably support 60 mana cost cinder strikes as my main and nearly only source of damage. which is why having both mana warp AND mana regeneration on every piece and its still is coming up short and feeling like im losing to much to still not solve the problem seems like an over sight

[Heavy]

@utmosey

not to cherry pick for my build specifically but i think dark quiver could be the answer if the resolve node in the dark quiver tree gave more than 2 mana per arrow per point it would be interesting and i dont see how it would break the game

I think the issue with the Resolve Node for Dark Quiver is, that it is gated behind Archer’s Focusy which increases the mana cost of the next ability used.
If Archer’s Focus would not be prerequisite for Resolve, that would make Dark Quiver already a way more enticing mana option

[utmosey]

@Heavy

I think the issue with the Resolve Node for Dark Quiver is, that it is gated behind Archer’s Focusy which increases the mana cost of the next ability used.
If *Archer’s Focus would not be prerequisite for Resolve, that would make Dark Quiver already a way more enticing mana option

i want archers focus im actively trying to make cinder strike cost as much mana as possible so i can get a damage bonus from ethereal arrows passive. and it seems like the game wants you to go that direction as well but the tools at hand come up alittle to short.

the fact that archers focus is a pre req makes me salivate because it seems like they (the devs ) are putting these concepts together as well i just need alittle boost in mana return and it would be great. i think dark quiver giving more mana per arrow would get me there

[Heavy]

@utmosey

i want archers focus im actively trying to make cinder strike cost as much mana as possible so i can get a damage bonus from ethereal arrows passive. and it seems like the game wants you to go that direction as well but the tools at hand come up alittle to short.

Ok, but how to you think Marksman mana management is, when you do not try to use Ethereal Arrows and Mana Warp?

Because I never had any mana issues with marksman, but I also never used these 2 passives in conjunction with abilities that you “spam”.

I really think the playstyle for these passives is more for Detonating Arrow or Hail of Arrows.

@utmosey

the fact that archers focus is a pre req makes me salivate because it seems like they (the devs ) are putting these concepts together as well i just need alittle boost in mana return and it would be great. i think dark quiver giving more mana per arrow would get me there

The thing is that Archer’s Focus is really making it worse, if you already have mana issues.
Resolve is only partially counteracting the additional mana cost.

@utmosey

i am using mana warp but with it its still not enough to reasonably support 60 mana cost cinder strikes as my main and nearly only source of damage. which is why having both mana warp AND mana regeneration on every piece and its still is coming up short and feeling like im losing to much to still not solve the problem seems like an over sight

So this is a very specific issue of using a skill that you use too often/frequently in conjunction with Mana Warp.

Everytime I used Mana Warp on a build, the Flat Mana per 0 Mana Skill used totally covered the additional costs.

If you seem to have issues with that it definitely seems that the balance between using Spender and Filler abilities is off.

I still don’t think that this is a Mana Regeneration issue, but a very specific Marksman issue.
Yes Mana Regeneration feels bad in your particular case, but that is not because mana regeneration is bad.

[utmosey]

@Heavy

@utmosey

the fact that archers focus is a pre req makes me salivate because it seems like they (the devs ) are putting these concepts together as well i just need alittle boost in mana return and it would be great. i think dark quiver giving more mana per arrow would get me there

The thing is that Archer’s Focus is really making it worse, if you already have mana issues.
Resolve is only partially counteracting the additional mana cost.

correct and i think it should counteract the mana cost even more. id love to see how many builds this would affect in a negative way to over powered way compared to how many builds it could enable in a fun and interesting way.

@Heavy

I really think the playstyle for these passives is more for Detonating Arrow or Hail of Arrows.

ive tried it with hail of arrows with flow passives in blademaster building up to a very expensive high damage hail of arrows and the damage just isnt there for some reason. even picking up dark quiver arrows and and syncing all of my increased damage sources it doesnt work out like you would hope.

[Heavy]

@utmosey

correct and i think it should counteract the mana cost even more. id love to see how many builds this would affect in a negative way to over powered way compared to how many builds it could enable in a fun and interesting way.

Yeah, at least make it a net 0 would be soemthing that could make this skill point investment worth a consideration for some more builds.
Dark Quiver already is a very unpopular skill I think, so buffing it a bit might not be a bad idea.
Not sure what Mike_W thinks on that one though.

@utmosey

ive tried it with hail of arrows with flow passives in blademaster building up to a very expensive high damage hail of arrows and the damage just isnt there for some reason. even picking up dark quiver arrows and and syncing all of my increased damage sources it doesnt work out like you would hope.

I am not that big into arena, but i think that exact playstyle was one of the strongest builds for some period of time in that game mode (also used shadows). I think that should still be the case.

[utmosey]

@Heavy

I still don’t think that this is a Mana Regeneration issue, but a very specific Marksman issue.
Yes Mana Regeneration feels bad in your particular case, but that is not because mana regeneration is bad.

i agree i was alittle short sighted. mana regen isnt so much the issue its the reward for spending / gaining is off for my build and i think its a shame. but that doesnt change the fact that nearly all builds dont have mana issues. this game is all about gaining and spending and on pretty much every other build it works. i dont know of any builds off the top of my head that absolutely need mana regen and mana on all of their gear to perform.

[DiceDragon]

Mana regen isnt the tool you want.

So you double mana regen passives, now you get say 500% in your example, your 8 becomes 36, you still are not sustaining casting big spender abilities on repeat like say always first strike cinder strike.

So I dont think buffing the mana regen is gonna matter.

Just be lucky, you are a rogue, you actually have mana generators you can use quickly. Imagine having to use focus or mana strike, or even worse… the mana on cast from tempest strike shudders

you sorta just have to use mana gens for big mana, if not then they would need to buff mana regen to the point that it trivilizes every other recovery mechanic for other builds.

I think it would be way more interesting to just have more mana manipulation options on skills, like “this skill is free now, but does nerfed damage” Ala glacier.

Alot of the big mana cost skills are cool thematically and suck because you require such an active mana style to use them. Im okay with giving up power, it lets you build it in new and interesting ways.

[utmosey]

@DiceDragon

Mana regen isnt the tool you want.

@DiceDragon

So I dont think buffing the mana regen is gonna matter.

@DiceDragon

Just be lucky, you are a rogue, you actually have mana generators you can use quickly. Imagine having to use focus or mana strike, or even worse… the mana on cast from tempest strike shudders

@DiceDragon

Alot of the big mana cost skills are cool thematically and suck because you require such an active mana style to use them. Im okay with giving up power, it lets you build it in new and interesting ways.

i unfortunately have to go raid in WoW for the next 4 hours but i agree with alot of the stuff you are saying and some how even some of the stuff heavy said as well

i think increasing the mana you got back from the resolve node in the dark quiver tree would be my next best solution. Do you think 2 mana back per point per arrow is a good spot for it or could increasing it be an option? in my mind and after playing my cinder strike build i dont think even doubling the mana on that node would break the class but i cant be for sure.

[Llama8]

@utmosey

the community hates when you have suggestions

The co.mmunity doesn’t hate it when you have suggestions. “The community” isn’t even monolithic enough to entirely disagree, some people will agree with you that mana as a constraint feels bad & that’s fair enough as a viewpoint. It’s just not one the devs (& some of the community share).

@utmosey

This is obviously not my first account on the forums

It’s not obvious. We have no idea how many you have.

@Heavy

but I am sure I never said everything is perfect.

Not explicitly, no, but that kinda is how most of your posts come across (& mine too probably).

@Heavy

Also in practice you will never constantly attacking and you need to reposition and evade skills.

Especially as a Rogue & especially especially as a Marksman…

@utmosey

the tools they give you are not enough where as other builds dont even have to think about this stuff

That’s not true, that sounds like you’re comparing a very mana expensive build (requiring the generator/spender playstyle) to builds that don’t use big spenders which is a fool’s errand.

@Shrukn

we didnt leave feedback for them. they are not devs

Then PM the devs directly. If you don’t want to have a conversation, don’t post in public.

@utmosey

where you dont read and absorb the information

He probably does, he’s just not having the conversation that you think he’s having. Heavy tries (given he’s not a native speaker but his English is generally pretty decent) to understand why you are saying what you are saying to get to your fundamental premises then discuss those.

@utmosey

i think moving it to suffix is the best option… i think it just makes more sense to choose between other secondary stats over mana and regen and i dont think you would have to increase it much if any then.

My issue with that is that suffixes are almost always defensive while mana regen is most definitely an offensive stat so from that point of view it belongs as a prefix (& IMO, that’s reasonable).

@DiceDragon

you sorta just have to use mana gens for big mana, if not then they would need to buff mana regen to the point that it trivilizes every other recovery mechanic for other builds.

And i believe that’s the point, we know the devs don’t mana cost to be trivialised as it is in some other games.

But I’m glad the conversation has moved on to a more constructive one.

[segfalt]

@Llama8

And i believe that’s the point, we know the devs don’t mana cost to be trivialised as it is in some other games.

I really appreciate this about LE. In many ARPGs by endgame you don’t even think about mana, it’s just spam, position and watch health. I like placing my bets on spending big skills at the right time.

[azmodael]

I am surprised OP complains from Rogue, which has one of the better ways to generate mana across all the classes. Not as good as Sentinel, which restores all mana with a press of a button, but still pretty good.

Try Sorcerer. The premium mana stacking class has to sit on one spot and channel in a game where every boss loads instakill circles under his ass.