Making Base Classes More Distinct

The skill specific affixes are cool. Class specific items and smart loot…not so much. I feel like these are really poor decisions for a game that intends to have trade. These things really incentivize playing the most popular meta class to make sure you’re getting drops with the most value, I’d argue the current looting system for idols is kind of the same issue. But once multiplayer and trade are live, if you’re not farming on the class with the most valuable drops then you’re just missing out on potential income that could fund your next big upgrade, a rare build-defining unique, a crafting project, or some such item for your next character.

These changes are great for a game that wants to be solo self-found centered, but when an economy is in play I think they’re really quite negative. I feel like the game is trying be both a multiplayer experience with an economy but also appeal to the SSF crowd and that ultimately compromises like this are bad for the game due to encouraging stuff like rolling the class with the most valuable drops.

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That’s really amazing

You don’t know how supply and demand work do you? If everyone is farming the same stuff, the market will be flooded with the items and won’t be worth anything. Not to mention the people that would potentially be interested in buying the items are playing the class and finding the items themselves.

Smart loot systems are a good thing. It doesn’t stop you from being able to get drops for other classes, it just gives things you can actually use priority.

I could even go as far as to say if you are just playing the game to speed farm loot to sell on the market, what is the point in playing? What do you need the currency for? Presumably, the currency is only usable in creating your own build, so why not just play the build you want and find the items. It would take less time.

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Wow wow wow! Awesome stuff, really looking forward to seeing what all is there. Only concern about more good stuff in the base passive trees is making it even harder to get all the good stuff I want from the mastery passive trees! Haha

Have you played PoE? The most popular classes always drive demand in a way that outstrips supply. If good items are sufficiently rare in LE, this will also be the case. The most popular build will want some item and there won’t be enough entering the market to meet that demand. A good example might be…Starforge in PoE. When half the endgame population is playing Cyclone it’s worth 10+ exalts, when no one was playing Cyclone it was often 1 exalt or less, despite the rarity and accessibility staying the same (prior to Conquerors of the Atlas, which lowered supply significantly).

Smart loot systems specifically make loot for other classes rarer. If a particular class-specific item is worth a lot in a specific meta then you’re lowering your chances to find it if you’re not playing that class, lowering your income by some percentage based on that item’s drop chance as well as any other items like it that are similarly made rarer by your class choice.

As I said, smart loot is great for games that lack trade. But if the rarer items that people want are buyable via trade, that’s very likely how people will obtain them- because they’re rare and it’s highly unlikely you’ll get one yourself. Therefore if you care about obtaining those rare items you must, in some aspect, care about the economy to solve how you get those items. If your time to play is also limited then you force an even bigger emphasis on time efficiency and income rate so that you “waste” the least time acquiring the things you want.

Some people enjoy playing the game to min/max. Some people want to see their currency grow and their goal for a league or season is to make a certain amount. It’s just another axis of gameplay. As far as “what do you need currency for?”…what don’t you need currency for? If trade exists then the items you want or need can be bought and making a transaction via trade is significantly faster than making or finding an item yourself. You say it would take less time, but that’s just not true unless items are exceptionally common or crafting is too easy. The best items will be rare and hard to come by as a single player. But given a large number of players someone is likely to find one or make one and put it up for sale, making what would normally be effectively inaccessible accessible via trade. If you want a good example that is currently in-game in Last Epoch, look the Fractured Crown. A solo player is very unlikely to get one and to even attempt so is a massive undertaking in terms of time and items required. It’s an item that is likely to be primarily obtained via trade from people who get lucky and acquire one unintentionally.

Have you played PoE?

Yes, for years.

The most popular classes always drive demand in a way that outstrips supply.

That is because drops in PoE are completely random and extremely rare to find any given good item.

If good items are sufficiently rare in LE, this will also be the case. The most popular build will want some item and there won’t be enough entering the market to meet that demand. A good example might be…Starforge in PoE. When half the endgame population is playing Cyclone it’s worth 10+ exalts, when no one was playing Cyclone it was often 1 exalt or less, despite the rarity and accessibility staying the same (prior to Conquerors of the Atlas, which lowered supply significantly).

Fallacious comparison. PoE has random drops or, in the case of the Starforge example, extreme end game that less than 1% can even get to. There is no item like that in LE. Not only that, you are completely ignoring the Smart Loot systems impact on supply.

Smart loot systems specifically make loot for other classes rarer. If a particular class-specific item is worth a lot in a specific meta then you’re lowering your chances to find it if you’re not playing that class, lowering your income by some percentage based on that item’s drop chance as well as any other items like it that are similarly made rarer by your class choice.

Again, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of supply/demand and how the market is changed with a smart loot system. Smart loot systems lower demand for “meta” items as the meta players will find the items themselves more often. They find them more often because the number of non-meta drops are significantly lowered based on the smart loot filter. If anything, the meta in a smart loot game increases the cost of niche build rare items because nobody is looking for them. At least in PoE there is a flood of niche build items and that makes them dirt cheap.

By this same logic, anyone not playing the meta build is lowering their income anyway. Meta builds are thus for a reason. They are usually the most efficient at farming content.

Some people enjoy playing the game to min/max. Some people want to see their currency grow and their goal for a league or season is to make a certain amount. It’s just another axis of gameplay. As far as “what do you need currency for?”…what don’t you need currency for? If trade exists then the items you want or need can be bought and making a transaction via trade is significantly faster than making or finding an item yourself. You say it would take less time, but that’s just not true unless items are exceptionally common or crafting is too easy. The best items will be rare and hard to come by as a single player. But given a large number of players someone is likely to find one or make one and put it up for sale, making what would normally be effectively inaccessible accessible via trade. If you want a good example that is currently in-game in Last Epoch, look the Fractured Crown. A solo player is very unlikely to get one and to even attempt so is a massive undertaking in terms of time and items required. It’s an item that is likely to be primarily obtained via trade from people who get lucky and acquire one unintentionally.

Some people also want to cheat and steal and grief. Not every option is optimal for the growth of a game.

As an aside, if you think Gold will be the currency, you are fooling yourself. Gold is useless. This game will devolve into the same thing that D2 did with trade. Things will be priced in some semi-rare ubiquitious item (Like SoJ in D2). If there are items that have extreme rarity, which I somewhat doubt (I bet Crown gets removed.), then there will be a scummy real money black market. The ONLY reason that trade works in PoE is because of their currency system being tied to the crafting system.

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Absolutely agree with all of @Arborus elaboration and why I’m slightly nervous to hear about smart loot.

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many good news !!!

I do. I can’t tell you HOW MANY TIMES gear drops for another class and not mine. It became frustrating. It felt like (to me) 80% of the gear that dropped, I couldn’t care less about. Like he did say… gear for other classes WILL still drop, just not as much as before.

edit: and to add, if you want gear for other classes, this will force you to PLAY those other classes. Rather than sit on your most powerful one and farm gear on it.

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I’m liking what I’m reading, of course I understand other’s concerns about “smart loot” and “class specific” gear. However, that’s why this is beta and we have the opportunity to test it out and voice any issues we or the system have. Looking forward to deleting my characters and starting fresh to get a feel for the changes.
Although where are my skill trees for my stances fellas? Eh? Ehhhhhhhh? J/k.

I like the idea of the 2d & 3d art matching, I’m kinda ok with the new gear being “better”, but one thing worries me (moderately related to smart loot but not something that appears to have been bought up per se).

So the existing uniques (for example, Exanginious & Calamity) are all going to be class specific. But what if you’re not the correct class but your build could really use one of those items? For example, I’ve got an ignite Paladin that uses a load of ignite-focused uniques, but what if the more mage-y ones are now Mage-specific items? That would make my Paladin less effective because he can now no-longer use some of the uniques that give him a fudge-load of ignite change. There may well be more Paladin-specific uniques that would work for that build but we won’t know till we see them (or more realistically, until lastepochtools.com gets updated ;)).

Presumably, this would mean that a character can only gamble for class-specific uniques because the class-specific bases are the only ones available for them to gamble.

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Definitely agree with Llama8, I am a bit worried about class specific items and affixes. I feel like it could prevent many creative builds / off-meta builds from existing if some build enabling uniques or simply some specific affixes can’t be used by everyone. I like the idea of class specific bases, but having all the armors and helmets be class specific might prove to be limiting in the long run.

Also, as a person that likes to reroll 30 toons per month, not being able to drop loot for my other toons (well, a lot less loot for my other toons) is a bit worrying :confused: Finding new items not meant for my class is also a great source of inspiration for creating new builds and am afraid that the reduced drop rate will hinder that.

This also worries me, gold should be the currency, but I’d be surprised if it was used for anything other than the Bazaar. I’m curious as to what happens with “off-piste” trade (ie, trade for RM or “forum gold” on other sites, etc).

Edit:

Depends on whether Sarno’s from north of the boarder (a Brit) or south (Irish). Without wanting to be pedantic (which is a blatant lie, but never mind).

Some uniques will be class-specific, others won’t be.

For the former there may occasionally be similar uniques created that are available for other classes; be that a specific other class, or just lacking a class requirement entirely.

 

A future update will make datamining much more difficult than it is currently.

There will be alternative means provided for those interested in creating Last Epoch-focused sites to incoporate game data into them. Both that resource and the upcoming mitigations against datamining will be gradually improved over time.

 

I am Scottish - so definitely north of a border. :smile:

That’s good to know, thanks mate.

As long as there’s some way for people to get the data to make awesome sites (like lastepochtools.com & the various PoE sites), that’ll do, I’m not wedded to datamining if there’s another way to get the data.

Well that’s me embarrassed for getting the accent so wrong…
:flushed:

goes to hide in a hole & get back to work… If only there were a good embarrassed Kryten pic I could post. :frowning:

Edit: I’m also not too fussed about the smart-loot, if you’re playing a meta class/build, you’ll be far more likely to find the loot that you need for it, which you could either use or sell to pay for a a different build.

And as for all the talk about “needing to farm efficiently on a meta build to get the loot to sell to the other meta-build using players”, **** me, it’s a game, not a job. If you want to play that way, do as you will, but know the rules of the game as EHG want them to be. Or, you know, maybe just enjoy the game?

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:thinking: :slight_smile:

I also feel of the worries about class-specific loot and build diversity, but there’s also another drawback to class-specific loot in my opinion : for players who like playing a lot of characters, it certainly makes things harder and requiring more farm. I’m somewhat okay with that, except that its also a major kick in the nuts for HC players. You can’t “accumulate” as much in HC as in SC, and if on top of it now what you accumulate/build up is (at least partly) class-specific, it’ll be even harder. Unless you’re an HC player whom always, always plays the same class but I kinda doubt that species even exists (dying and frustration go well in hand with trying different builds/classes).
Edit : however, its definitely a plus for solo-play. And many HC people play solo-hc, so my argument probably isnt worth much

On the other hand, concerning the passives change, i’m not sure I got it right, but if the mastery trees still only need 20 points in base tree yet base tree now has higher options, that means those higher passives in the base tree are weighted against the top of the mastery trees. As in putting points above 20 in base class carries the double weight of :

  • slower unlocking of skills and specific passives in mastery classes
  • less points overall in mastery classes (and less multiclassing)

Taking this into account, I hope that the “above-20” passives in the base trees are strong enough to be worth the trade, else they’re likely to be “noob-traps” whom just make a player weaker overall (slower progression AND slightly weaker longterm).
Unless they’re “meant to be respecced” but that wouldnt make much sense because it would still slow down class progression (in terms of unlocking certain skills or reaching certain critically important passives) which would be contradictory with a “temporary passive meant to be respecced” (in other words, a “temporary power boost” which also “slows you down” is kinda pointless)

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like days, weeks, ore month?

the issue with the answer is you will sit on most powerful then switch to other to gamble if not on solo mode. not trying to start anything just making a small point that will and can happen

Why? As an example, you could either hit 20 points in the base class & wait till you get to the mastery quest, then have more points to spend immediately, or continue to put points into the base class until you get the mastery class then either respec out of the “excess” points in the base class or keep them if they’re useful for your build.

It can be as you say, if you want it to be.

I hope they provide for some more flexibility in builds. Say some additional non-melee nodes for the Sentinel.

Why would it slow down the class progression though? The respeccing gold cost at that level is pretty cheap, so you get a “temporary power boost”, then respec out of them when your mastery becomes available & you have more effective options available. That doesn’t sound like it’s “slowing you down” to me.