LP System has lots of issues | Constructive Feedback and Suggestions

Feedback and Suggestions
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e-X is basically just how many decimal places a number has. So 0.1 = e-1 and 0.001 = e-3. Likewise, if you use positive numbers, it tells you how many significant zeroes a number has. So 10 = e1, 1000 = e4. Technically it’s e^4, since it’s an exponent.
So basically e = 10. It’s something that was created for computing (since e has a different meaning in math) for representing big numbers.

Well, first of all, most of the sun’s mass will be ejected when it goes throught the red giant phase.
Secondly, it’s obvious that the solar system is only relevant until the earth is swallowed because we are the only thing that matters in the universe. That’s why we’re in the center of it.
:laughing:

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Yes, it is a joke. Or started that way, anyway, until the inner nerds in us kicked in. :wink:

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Yes, that is true.
And it’s already been stated by me ‘crafting itself is not the issue, the underlying rotten core system - namely the drop rate - is the issue’.
Also nobody provided a functional reliable solution to it.

TLDR below.

This means we can’t adjust the drop rate in our suggestions but can only adjust the crafting system to alleviate the issues coming from the drop rate.

We know ‘something is not going well’ we’ve declared ‘we know what’s not going well, after a specific point we can’t upgrade gear anymore’ we’ve also found out ‘it is caused by the exponential function of the drop rate happening over time’ and hence can either change that (with vast balance changes for all content) or alleviate it at least with a function in a higher hierarchical order, namely crafting.

So TLDR:

Since we have issues arising from the drop-rate but can’t change that we can only do so by easing up on crafting outcomes.

Simple as that.

Only if you take statements without context. Then yes, you should… but you’ll be disappointed if you don’t know the context.

Context matters :slight_smile:

The number is higher then seconds the universe exists actually. Likely by a large margin even. That’s absolutely normal to happen with probabilities.

Hence ‘lifetime of the planet or solar system’ would be more reasonable.

And yes, that number is ridiculous, which is the issue. He was absolutely correct in using the term.

Then you need to take into consideration the following next up:

Drop-rate for uniques in total.
Drop rate to be that specific item type.
Drop-table weighted for the rarity.

the 1e13 rate is hence increased by several magnitudes beyond. That’s the active number of all items needing to drop to achieve your outcome.

This basis is important. Since we don’t have a quantity modifier but only a rarity one we can go and see how many items drop per monolith as a medium count and then discern from that how many monoliths one would need to run at any specific corruption level to achieve the goal. That returns a specific amount of time which is the time needed per person. Divide that through the total playercount, then you can see how long the whole community would need to drop a single one of those.

It’s how often the decimal shifts. 1e-2 for example is 0,01 1e+3 is 1000. It’s to not write out the many zeros to loose overview.

Per-player play-time is likely between 10-20 hours per player, without those quitting before ending the campaign it’s likely more between 40-60. EHG should actually know from their data and discern the drop-rate accordingly.

What do you think about 1 in a seventillion then or more? :slight_smile: Welcome to LE!

I say top-tier items should at least drop 5-10 times per cycle for the total player-base, to make it a bit more in-line with the hardest diablo-clone for drop-rate currently existing . Why that? Because LE wants to stand below PoE in terms of difficulty of acquisition and content after all, so it makes no sense for this ridiculous numbers!

So I have to agree. I find it very perplexing for people to argue that drops existing on astrological timeframes is even a viable discussion.

But here we are.

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Not according to my math. 4LP red ring is 3e-13% chance, the universe has currently 4e17 seconds. Which would fall under the lifetime of the planet or solar system, rather than the whole universe.

This is true though. I have accounted for the last one, but not the first two. Though the second isn’t too relevant since there aren’t that many item types.
But the drop rate for uniques could actually jump the numbers into the e-18% chance Llama quoted.

Still much less than the total time until the Big Freeze/Big Bounce/Big Rip/Big Crunch (cross out the ones that don’t apply).
So I fully expect to get quite a few 4LP red rings when I’m settled in Alpha-Beta-Zeta-C after mankind discovered immortality and mastered space travel.

I disagree with this, though. Because all your arguments make it seem like there are only 2 types of gear in LE: very easy to get and impossible to get. When it fact it has many tiers. And the curve for each is exponential.

Just because the last tiers are so exponential that they aren’t achievable, doesn’t mean that you still don’t have hard to get but totally achievable tiers of gear.

You can get good gear in 100h. After that, if you want to improve, you have to dedicate 1000h into it. And if you still want to improve after that, you have to dedicate 10000h.
This seems, to me, like a totally fair function growth to use for gear tiers.

But all your arguments treat the game like “I can get gear progression in the first 10h and after that I need years to improve”, which is just not true.

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The sun should keep most of it’s mass as a white dwarf, but it’ll shrink down to the size of the Earth.

Red giant stars: Facts, definition & the future of the sun | Space spending about 1 billion,roughly the size of Earth

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This isn’t true though. The sun is constantly losing mass as it’s ejecting materials constantly. Estimates are that when the sun goes white dwarf it should have half as much mass as it currently has.

Or, if you want a quote from the same site:
“Low- to medium-mass stars, such as the sun, will eventually swell up into red giants. After that, the stars shed their outer layers into a ring known as a planetary nebula (early observers thought the nebulas resembled planets such as Neptune and Uranus ). The core that is left behind will be a white dwarf, a husk of a star in which no hydrogen fusion occurs.”

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For a star of about 1 solar mass (i.e. “the sun, Sol, the big yellow ball”), about half the star’s initial mass.

Australia says 40%

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Yeah, for now it’s just estimates, since we don’t have enough data points yet for a more accurate calculation. But half the mass seems to be the consensus for now.

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24 item types. If we combine all idols into 1.

That’s substantial.

One way or the other: too much by itself already.

And 4 T7 items are more rare even since more things need to align for them to exist.

I mean… the state where the in-between is is not really long. It turns rather quickly from ‘a fraction of your play-time’ to ‘several magnitudes of play-time’.

And also to be fair… I think no upgrade should ever take longer then the total play-time combined for all upgrades before, given the most miniscule possible upgrade you could achieve at any given time.

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I’m not talking about a single upgrade.
You spend the first hour getting upgrades, since you start with nothing and pretty much everything is an upgrade.
Then you spend the next 10h doing the campaign and getting constant (at a slower rate than the previous step) upgrades for it.
Then you spend the next 100h doing monos and getting constant (at a slower rate than the previous step) upgrades to let you reach 300c.
Then you spend the next 1000h doing high corruption and getting upgrades at a much slower rate to let you reach 1k+.
Then, if you still want, you can spend the next 10k hours getting upgrades very slowly to push even higher, though at this stage it’s not really worth it.

This also happens in PoE. You don’t get constant upgrades to your gear at the same rate until you’re level 100.
You spend 1h picking up mostly anything so you have base gear, then you spend 10h doing the campaign and getting upgrades that let you finish it, then you spend 100h doing maps and other endgame activity until you have comfortable gear for it, then you can spend 1000h getting better gear to push your build limits.
I expect by now the baseline for being able to do these things is actually faster with the power creep of the last years, but the base progression rate is the same:
-You spend some time getting a baseline, the you spend way more time improving your gear as a whole for the next tier, then you spend way more time than the last one to improve your gear as a whole for the next tier, etc.
You don’t spend 100h where every single hour you have an upgrade. It starts to taper off the better your gear becomes.

You might argue about the progression rate curve and that you want it to be lower, but all games use one, whether it’s more steep (LE/PoE) or less steep (D3/D4).

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I would argue that’s the point where it starts to differ. By the time you beat normal monos… you’ll likely have T6 exalted items or 4 T5 items already, for the best base even. Since good bases on their own tend to drop a lot, so at least you get baseline functionality.

So those 100 hours you start to feel a visible slowdown in item acquisition, maybe every 10 hours+ you get one, and only once per slot before the potential is gone.

And then the next step starts… the dreaded T6 and T7 rare affix range instead of a common T7 affix.

That can take for a base drop to take several hundred hours alone, so in those 1000 hours described? You get maybe… 1 upgrade? If you’re lucky? At least in MG that’s the case, and legacy hasn’t been affected by the exploit, so it showcases the normal market distribution still to a degree.

So the 1k hour mark doesn’t really exist, it’s more like the 150-250 hour mark turns into a 10k+ mark before the next turns into a impossible thing, maybe 1 upgrade in the next 250k hours.

Yes, and that’s fine.
After 8k hours played though I’ll have at least a few mirror-tier items if I solely focus on a single character and hence play Standard. I personally have around 8,5k hours in the game and created 2 of these items myself. And I gave up around 15k exalted/divine for that (depending on which time we talk about).
That’s a slow pace of progression nowadays as well given that a person gets roughly 5-10 divine per hour.

Yes, agreed.
In LE I’m not even half-way through the itemization progression though. I’m in Quarter 1… and a quarter has 4 parts.
I’m in the last 10-15% in PoE by that time.

It’s substantially slower.

Yes, and that’s exactly what I’m arguing about! :slight_smile:

LE positions itself as a more casual game then PoE but a more ‘hardcore’ experience then D3/D4.
Their itemization is the hardest existing on the market though. It makes PoEs sweatlord behavior look like a toddler’s crib.

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What do you think people were arguing about before? This is literally THE complain that people have with progression. The curve is all wonky, it is too easy to get decent gear, and the progression grinds to a halt too quickly.

The upgrade curve in PoE is waaaay more smooth than it is in LE.
There is absolutely zero comparison.
When you are putting together a build in PoE, the next upgrade was just a few hours of farming away from me until I went to the big ticket items (MB, HH, etc).
Then, the next upgrades became more spread out, but still within sight.

This is so far divorced from what it happens in LE that it is not even funny.
Mind you, I am not talking about absoulte BiS, I am just talking about the next upgrade in the chain.
The curve in LE is just a step, it takes minimal effort to go onto the step (which in this metaphor is somewhat decent gear), and then the progress becomes a crawl that is so slow that you cannot even see what the next upgrade is supposed to be.

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That has not been my experience. In fact, at this point I’m still mostly using leveling 0LP uniques because no better gear has dropped yet to replace them.
But overall, after 100h, I do get a bump (when evaluated as a whole, not for every single upgrade).

I don’t know what makes you say that. It was just as affected. All the good uniques vanished and prices skyrocketed. It probably is just recovering better because most cycle players have stopped playing by now, but legacy players are still playing (and thus adjusting their prices to the actual market progress).

That is irrelevant, though. The fact that there are extra tiers doesn’t change the progression. A mirror-tier item in LE isn’t a 4LP red ring. It’s a 2LP one. And a 2LP red ring is definitely achievable by a few people during a cycle.

The fact that a 4LP one exists and is unachievable is irrelevant for the progression as long as there are still items that do let you progress.
Reaching the end of your progression because there aren’t any better items to chase or because the better items are impossible to get makes no difference to your progression rate until then.

That doesn’t have to be the case for every single thing in the game, though. Some things can be as casual or even more casual than D3 and some things can be more “hardcore” than PoE. It’s the game as a whole that is positioned that way, not every single system.

In the case of gear progression, I feel that LE is easier than D3 at the start all the way to being harder than PoE at the end. And you walk that spectrum from one point to the other. On average, it’s still between both.
And you choose how much you want to push. So if all you want to do is 300c endgame, gear progression is easier than PoE and harder than LE. It’s only when you want to push 1k+ that it becomes harder.

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My experience (and why I’m not playing) is that by the time I’ve gotten to endgame mono’s (100c) upgrades are very rare. I’m just talking exalted items. When I, rarely, do finally get an item to have 2 or 3 affixes I want, it’s almost pointless (except shields, which have much fewer affixes) to try to make it into what I need to be in that slot with crafting because there are so many affixes. It’s demented that an item that drops with a single T7 affix (assuming it’s an affix that I want) is a better item than a T7, T6, T3, T1 because the 1,3 and 6 are almost certainly nothing I want (and even it if is, it’s almost never the implicits I want or in the slot I need).

It’s no wonder that people focus on LP and slamming. If you can get an legendary item to (mostly) work for your build (affix-wise), then it’s an obvious better choice if you could only get the “two affixes are good” exalted to properly slam. People are using legendaries and slam to bypass the inability to get an exalted with all the affixes they want. And they are blaming slam.

Maybe it’s just me. I love the skill system. I hate the itemization. I hate that the crafting feels like a kick in the nuts when I get an item that I should have been able to turn into a small upgrade.

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Just being able to stop caring about the item base is such a big deal for slamming.
You get so many more chances of getting the exalts you need.

The fact that item bases are so important for exalts really sucks.
Citadel boots have the most armour by a mile AND they get an exalted less bonus damage from crits as an implict.
If you want to use an exalted boot, more than half of the potential drops lose 6 tiers worth of suffixes just due to the way the implicits are distributed.
And the same reasoning applies to the glove slot with Eternal gauntlets having the most armour and a very desirable implicit on top of that.

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A completely irrelevant amount of mass. It looses ~4.7 million tons (~4.7 x10^9) per second from a mass of ~2 x10^30. I wonder if I loose a greater % of my mass as dead skin.

Sorry for the dodgy link in the earlier post.

The pertinent bit:

Yes, but you needed to keep on reading. If you read your link you get the relevant bit here:

So if ~40% of the sun’s mass gets lost , then the greater part is kept? Like, most of it?

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I did point that out. That’s the whole point. By the time it reaches white dwarf it will have lost half the mass (which so far is the better consensus among the science community). Presumably it will eventually lose all mass altogether over a long long long period of time, especially if the Big Freeze or Big Rip are the correct ones.

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Rares haven’t shot up to 1,5 bil and the uniques came back in at least :stuck_out_tongue:
Cycle had that stuck, which is worse.

Not ‘as’ affected. So it has the resemblance at least.

For my psyche it isn’t. It does care for extra tiers in progression, very much so.

Staying congruent with the core design philosophy should be fairly important. And that one’s included in that.

Since it’s the core aspect of a diablo-clone, even more so then skills, leveling or the combat itself (Albeit I would say the combat comes close in importance).

Nah, not just you.
Definitely not.

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Exactly!!

So you got a nice 500 million gold item and if it misses the T7 affix it’s worthless. This is just way to much of a gamble and near priceless items shouldn’t become worthless because of RNG.

There should be a method of being able to lock in the T7 affix. Not sure if that is something that is guaranteed on 3LP items or maybe we need to add a resource to lock it in. However it has to change.

My heart can’t take having 500 mil gold priceless items becoming junk you drop on the ground because the T7 didn’t apply. It’s a bad system and just ruins the game long term and hurts your ability to create builds.

Yea if I have to do Temporal Sanctum again next cycle to craft I don’t think I’m coming back. I’m over it. Gate-keeping the main core of the game behind this dungeon is a bad move by EHG.

Every cycle you are going to do Temporal Sanctum 100’s of times to craft your gear and it’s just an atrociously annoying time-sink that isn’t required.

There should be a way to unlock the Legendary Forge and have it be at the End of Time where you can craft without being forced into this annoying time-sink.

Temporal Sanctum is one of the worst experiences I’ve had in a video game. It’s literally made me Atl F4 and quit for months.

Yea we can only hope. Last Epoch is a great game but there are some serious systems and design that are in the way of experiencing that great game.

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60

Having the same feeling as you, but CoF side.

So CoF has this “perk” where uniques are “upgraded”, usually from non-LP to 1 LP. The issue is that with Nemesis this is a huge downgrade. Absolutely frustrating. A 1 LP drop is absolutely useless because Nemesis egg can’t be replaced by the 1 LP. So you’d actually prefer for the drop to be a non-LP. But CoF “perk” joined the party…

But, you might say, Nemesis can make a non-LP even worse (compared to a 1 LP drop). Yeah, it might, by adding one or two bad affixes or making it 1 LP too, but on the other hand it can and will, often enough, transform a non-LP with good stats into a powerful 2 LP unique or even a 2 good stat Legendary (T7 + T5).

But let’s go with the 2 LP. It drops or you get it from the Nemesis - at which point, you fast run the TS. Just teleport (or whatever skill you have) to get ASAP to the exit. Then next level, same stuff. Then Julra, fast and easy or slow and possibly incredibly frustrating if you die, for a high level unique.

And then, for a 2 LP, you have a 50% chance of getting one of the stats you want (presumably the T7) and 1/6 chance of getting both stats you want (assuming you have another, maybe a T6, that would be great). And let’s face it, it’s usually two stats.

Every single step is so time consuming.

  • You need to get the unique dropped, either with 2 LP or go through Nemesis, with no guarantee of an LP. Good luck with some uniques though, and as CoF you’ll feel like punching the screen when that particular unique finally drops and it’s… 1 LP. 'Cause CoF “upgrade”…
  • You need the exalted, which even with prophecies, simply because of how many affixes there are for any given item, it is quite a lot of work.
  • Then you take the item and craft it, and as pointed above, it’s a binary result. Either it’s good, or it isn’t. The crafting part itself leads to many trashed items, because you want it to have the exalted assimilated to a 2 LP, therefore you really strive to get all the stats at least useful. So unless the exalted drops with exactly the 2 stats you need plus 2 more that are useful (instead of the myriad of stats that are useless), you’ll removal/chaos/order/despair it. And you will get the odd -17 FP. I swear to god, it feels like those “fringe” rolls happen more often the better the potential item is. If any FP remaining, you’ll duplicate/reroll values if need be (for example T7 crit avoidance might need a re-roll if <50…) it, at least giving yourself 2 chances.

So after all this chores, where you had the “yes!!!” moment from a good 2 LP drop/Nemesis, the “OMG!” moment from the exalted crafting, you go through the TS (as fast as you can, because you’ve already done it a gazillion times already) and the unique picks up the two T5 non-useless stats.

Hulk time.

If you’re still with me - the problem is that this whole thing is a lot more frustrating than IF the whole thing would drop. Take the Nemesis - it is less frustrating to put in a non-LP item and have it “upgraded” with two useless stats.

Nemesis is way faster and I don’t have to go through all the disappointment of seeing all the investment associated with the previous, “classic” crafting, go down the drain. Still better even if the overall chances to get a useful 2 stat legendary, via Nemesis, are lower than with the standard crafting (which in theory it’s the case, however the classic crafting + TS also requires way, waaaay more time invested). Moreover, you might still get a 2 LP unique which is then used as input for the classic crafting.

Except if you’re CoF. Then you’re screwed, 'cause most of the uniques that drop are unusable for Nemesis.

Anyway, going about it via the classic way is all that randomness added up which, in the end, means that the chances of getting “that” item are so low that they might as well be drops. Except that if it were drops you wouldn’t have to go through the disappointment of seeing your “work” and planning destroyed by a bad TS roll.

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