I think you must have skimmed over the bit where he said he wanted it to be publicly visible, just not publicly accessible/participation 'cause thouse dirty scrub noobs don’t know anything useful. Except he does want them to participate 'cause otherwise it would be horribly elitist? I think?
I think its quite sad that this thread couldn’t be a more constructive discussion on what was a suggestion, instead seems to be perceived as something negative. Like for some reason some people took offense to an ‘idea’, and this notion that ‘everyone else is noob’ or whatever that you and bronco seem to keep repeating are your words, not mine.
A suggestion that the discussion group could be public so as to be transparent, accountable and open to scrutiny, yet not everyone could participate in the discussion so that it is somewhat moderated and quality controlled, is instead perceived as some kind of elitist gatekeeping, that everyone else are ‘dirty scrubs’ or whatever negative connotations that you have attached to my suggestion, (again, your words, not mine) is honestly just tiring and exhausting to respond to at this point. As if somehow the notion that other players who might have more experience with the game are somehow going to negatively impact your personal ingame experience because they are ‘selfish’ just feels like almost some kind of insecurity or ego issue.
I guess I expected too much when I expected to perhaps get a constructive debate going on here, weighing the pros and cons, instead we seem to have some people who feel ostracized or threatened at what was simply an idea or an approach towards improving some aspects of the game that might be lacking.
Unfortunate.
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I can’t imagine why…
You, allegedly one such player, proved pretty handily that you don’t even understand the differences between how you play games and how most people play games. You quite literally said that you can’t understand somebody picking a skill based on liking it instead of it having the biggest numbers. Why wouldn’t someone think that a bunch of players like you are totally incapable of representing their interests when you can’t even understand their interests?
You need to get real dude. There is no constructive debate to be had about an idea that is based entirely on treating casual players as “less than” and their feedback as the same.
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But we already have a better place for long form discussion of ideas, the forum.
I believe you used the term “average joes” or “hand-picked” rather than “noobs” or “scrubs”, but they are synonymous.
You asked for feedback on your idea and you appear pussed when people either don’t like it or suggest that there are better avenues for what you want already in existance and being used.
is almost by definition
Just because you don’t actually call people “dirty scrubs” (a term I used with humour) doesn’t mean that you value their opinion because they haven’t hit whatever benchmark number of hours you’ve decided confer an acceptable level of knowledge for their opinion to be worth reading.
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I’d rather just be a dirty scrub with a Tesla covered in nickels and let the devs, who are paid to make the game better while we are not, put forth their ideas and then give them honest feedback via the forums.
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Well, the very start of your opening post contained
So yes, it was rather obvious from the beginning that you expected too much and was bound to hit a wall.
If you wanted to come across as open to discussion, this was arguably the worst possible introduction.
Now, about the suggestion itself:
You are entirely free, and even encouraged, to use these forums to discuss any idea you have about balancing some skills. Not everybody will agree with you, it never happens, but specific discussions on a skill are usually constructive and interesting.
If you want more involvement, you can and should apply to be a Play Tester.
Of course, you are also completely free to create your own Discord or WhatsApp or WhatEver.com group and invite whoever you want. Nothing wrong with that.
But what you want instead is a kind of official, special status given to some players over others. Some feedback OFFICIALLY valued more than some other.
This is the bit that is unacceptable.
I am not born yesterday, I realise it can and does happen all the time, wittingly or not.
Again, make your elite group privately and submit your feedback to the devs via any way you like. This is fine.
What would be really, really wrong, is having it officially sanctionned by EHG.
I fervently hope it never happens (I am not too concerned though, I don’t think it will).
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To be fair, that’s already the case.
I mean I tried to, you havent responded to my post talking back to you about you’re ideas that would fit the group you’re trying to come up with.
Like I said originally, if you want to show this idea could work, you have to show ideas you’d present to it, and be able to say why. You did that, but none of them had anything to do with balance, I pointed out what you’re points actually were, and various commentary on that above, but yeah, you haven’t responded.
I’m not sure how you expect constructive discussion if you aren’t going to engage in it? Weird thing to complain about ngl.
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Marksman doesn’t thoug. Marksman 100% relied on the old crit vuln to function. At the moment all Marksman crit builds that don’t include Dragonsong are basically dead, because there is no flat crit you can get in that class. I get that BD was abusing that point, but the solution was fairly easy - put it deeper into the marksman tree. Ultimately BD doesn’t need it, as it has its own crit vuln passive and has plenty of options for flat crit % from weapons. Unfortunatelly for Marksman, bows can’t roll flat crit % prefix, which I find it idiotic, bows don’t have bases with flat crit and there are no unique bows besides Dragonsong that have flat crit %. Also Dragonsong can roll 4-7%, which at worst is almost useless and at best is still weaker than a t6% flat crit on a melee weapon. Now days 10 stacks of crit vuln only gives you 20% flat crit (25% when you add the base chance), which means you need to have around 110ish% crit chance from gear to hit 100% crit and there aren’t many places you can do so reliably. Especially if you are playing (I’m gonna puke just saying it) a Bowmage, which got hit the hardest from the crit vuln nerf.
Did you miss the sentence that preceeded the one you quoted?
If the 20% flat crit from crit vulnerability interacted with one’s % increased crit it would be significantly easier to hit crit cap for the Marksman given the lack of flat crit, as you say.
Well, to be fair, Bowmage was pretty strong, now is in the very baseline of doing all content, because how strong was previously.
All the rest, yeah, they effectively murdered crit marksman.
Crit Marksman didn’t get much survivability and flat damage in the first place, getting easy crit was kind of a counter-point to it to some extent.
You can still massively support other player in MP. 20% free crit for others is still free crit, and you can add loads of armor shred and other nasty stuff. Is the solo player that go hit in the balls. If the objective was to nerf MP support marksman… good job.
Crit Detonating Arrow, Crit Multishot with Flight of Survival, Jelkhors Marksman, Dragonsong Marksman…all reach 100% crit with proper gear investement. How can Marksman be dead?
Nothing changed for marksman, only the crit vuln change and less lp chance on arrowguard.
Even if you only reach 80% effective crit, how can you say a class is dead when almost every hit is a yellow number? You guys got used to 100% crit uptime all the time, which was a stupid and overpowered design that made crit chance a useless stat.
Unbelievable really…
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Again, not true.
No Dragonsong. Simple Crit DA build with trash gear while leveling in early emp.
Any white numbers? Yep, bleed stacks. Played this build for 2 years, will have 200-400k crits once the build is done.
Where did you guys get the information that you cant crit anymore with mm?
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Uhm… the devs told us crit vulnerability is applied after all crit calculations in another post, if you’re getting almost 100% crit, and you don’t have… 1000% increased crit, maybe the vulnerability does get increased with inc crit? If that is the case, with 300% increased and full stacks, you’re full critting.
Which is correct from what i see from testing.
Nope, tested it. Even with full stacks im still able to see a non crit with this char.
This char in the video has currently 63% crit + 20 from CV-> 83% crit on full stacks.
And as you can see in the video…enough crit chance to make mm viable because crit multi has not been nerfed (and DA got a dmg effectiveness buff).
Now i just stack crit multi/flat dmg/dex…and its done.
About Multishot:
Flight of the First gives you 9%base crit which makes multishot perfectly viable. But yes, noone played that bow before because no content creator told you to play it. It’s a community problem that too many people are just reading and listening instead of actually playing the game. Volca will bring out a multishot build guide soon. Then i wanna see reddit and discord again how everyone will tell you ‘‘yeeaaah marksman is fine i knew it, i told you the whole time bla bla’’.
The only marksman build that really relies on 100% crit is dragonsong for the proc to feel as smooth as in 0.8.5. because there still is the proc chance ontop of it.
It took me a while to reach that point (hey guess what, now you actually have to gear your character, which is part of an arpg, kinda cool huh?).
You just cant play that build from lvl 36 onwards anymore as we did before. Thats all.
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Heh, is a fair assessment, but a bit harsh.
I still think marksman is in a very weak spot compared to other classes, the damage in the video is nothing to write home about.
But you are right in one think: better to test it out yourself.
Sorry i didnt mean to get personal, and that ‘‘you’’ was more directed to the community in general.
I just wish that more people really start to actually play the game and test things by themselves rather than listening to other people. I just see too much theorycrafting and assumptions lately on all the platforms.
I know that alot of people will not agree with me on this one, but i would even go that far and say Marksman is the most balanced class in the game currently. It’s the only class where i play a build and can say ‘‘well, there is no broken mechanic behind it’’ and the only thing that is missing is Falconer and the rest of the Rogue skills to bring in more build variety.
There are some archetypes like ailment marksman builds that should get more love because the passives/skilltrees are full of ailment support, but in general again i think the community compares too much to broken classes like necro/lich where you kill t4 bosses in 5 seconds and see this as a standard. People were complaining that the game is too easy and do you remember the video by Lizard talking about the biggest problem?
Well, Rogue currently is the only class where gear really matters and you need to invest time to feel the build upgrade.
That Crit Vuln nerf was one of the best adjustements that happened to Rogue.
Other classes need some nerfs like that soon aswell so that gearing feels more important again.
Hear Hear!
Take what makes you weak and turn it into something that makes you strong.
That’s absolute garbage damage 
. You are peaking 100k on a dummy with a skill that isn’t spamable. How much do you think you can scale it with the tools this class has? And you play with Throne of Ambition which works on like 15% of the enemies you are going to fight and with a helm that prevents you to leech HP and with a quiver that isn’t Arrowguard and Morningforst 
. That character will be splattered all over the timelines the moment it hits 200C and takes 50% increased damage monster affix.
Marksman isn’t the most balanced class, it’s the weakest class, alongside Shaman.
Lol Suckerpunch DA got absolutely wrecked this patch. Base damage effectiveness was boosted but it lost base damage and its flat damage conversion to lightning. This made it lose conversion for flat fire from ele arrows, flat phys from swift assassin, assassin’s quiver and sniper’s gambit as well as flat damage from a second prefix on bow(also flat damage from mourningfrost if you used it). The skill now actively discourages you from building into a specific damage type and investing in penetration/shock/shred which seems dumb to me.
You’re using Peak of the Mountain here which cuts off leech and has pretty much no defenses. How will this hold up in actual combat ?
Pre 0.9.0 it had all this and was STILL worse than Bowmage/Dragonsong.
Pretty much all Marksman builds end up going with the unique bows since base bows are so trash which is another problem.
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