The way I read @DuckWho’s comment wasn’t a statement against grinding for better gear, but more about locking builds behind unique items that require too much of grinding.
To me, Last Epoch is all about trying new builds : Respec is easy and re-levelling is fast just for that reason. LE’s skills/passive system is also one of the best design I’ve seen in recent years. As someone who enjoy not following meta / builds-by-experts, I find it fun and refreshing when something “click” and you get a bump in power just because you changed your skills and their synergies.
Hence, the line I would draw is : locking a build (i.e. new gameplay) behind a very-hard-to-get-unique is a “No”, but locking 300 corruption / T4 dungeon behind a 2-3 Legendary Potential very-hard-to-get-unique is a “Yes”.
So yes, you’d still be grinding to get the best loot, but you’d have “easier” access to baseline loot that enables you to test whatever ideas pop your mind.
From a purely social view, I think that limited trading with friend is better than simply “increasing drop rate”. You can now be exited by the drops your friends get. Too much loot, and you have an experience like Borderlands 3 (where you don’t get that sweet dopamine rush anymore when uniques drop)
I agree with this take, but the problem is the definition of what is “build enabling”
unlike say LL in path of exile, where you get more auras, a new passive, etc, something like the LL ward items isnt a “new build” or “Build enabling” by that logic every unique is build enabling because by nature it adds a unique effect.
But if they are super common, they might as well not be unique. And most of the items people define as build enabling are just not in my opinion. People also like to point at herald of the scurry as build defining, when really its not. its just a really strong summon wolf helmet. All it does is add some damage to a wolf build. You can still play a wolf build without needing to use the helmet. its rare because it has potentially +3 summon wolf, built in shred, and good baseline stats as well. If they added a passive in the wolf tree that turned them from wolves to squirrels, it would not see as much hype as the helm generates imo and would then 1000% not be build defining.
I think people just want access to strong builds without having to grind for them.
But I think its a mix of items being too rare for their actual power level. Scurry and bastion deserve their rarity level. Where as stuff like plaguebearers staff and Exsang do not.
So its not just a “more drops of all kinds” situation, just the devs need to consider “why are some of these sought after items so rare, and do they warrant it?”
Imo like half the “uniques/target farming” dilemma is just BoH and Exsang being absurdly dominant in their niche. “Shields being worth it” or “ward as a meaningful defensive layer” are not things that should depend on a solitary “build-enabler”. Ofc ppl get frustrated when they can’t find these items - the game has core mechanics which you practically don’t get to use until you get them.
In almost every other case there’s a graduated progression where t20 rares are perfectly serviceable, exalts are great and insisting on a perfect unique or legendary is just being impatient.
Tomorrow (Tues, Feb 21st), our development team plans to share a significant update on the next iteration of Trade, the Bazaar, and what we have in store for the world of Eterra. Stay Tuned!
Good call out, just want to add that this does not change our priorities around being able to play and have fun by finding gear yourself and not needing to interact with a trade system if you don’t want to. I know that might seem at odds with the implication of trade as an idea but I think we’ve found a very promising solution. Tomorrow is going to be wild.
Well see, BoH is just busted. it deserves its rarity, its pretty much just a stat stick. solution would be to make normal shields not suck so bad imo.
Exsang is a mistake, ward is fun, I like it as a mechanic. But LL ward through Exsang/last steps is worse then health+leech in almost every situation. So while exsang exists as a mechanic to let anyone access ward, if you dont all the other items to make it work? you are downgrading your character.
it does not deserve its rarity, it either needs buffs to justify its rarity, or be something that drops plenty and thus exists as an option.
Skyzoh explained it pretty well. It is not about not wanting to grind. It is about being stuck in a grind for dozens of hours just to be able to try something. They can keep legendaries and all that end game stuff as is and give people who want to play a lot some kind of purpose. I don’t oppose that at all. For me progression is the best thing in Last Epoch. Until very late game your build always has something you can upgrade slightly and keep getting better. But every once in a while, it needs a unique item because it is best in slot and alternatives aren’t close enough. Even when you can use a rare instead, slightly upgrading that rare becomes pointless. Slightly upgrading other equipment becomes pointless. Because you will get 5-10% improvements from those at best. And it will get even slower over time. But that one unique will give you 50% boost it feels like you need to grind for that unique. If you don’t, you are pretty much shooting yourself in the foot. And now you are stuck in a single part of content for dozens of hours and if you get unlucky with RNG, it will get frustrating. This doesn’t mean I would stop playing after I get that unique. Other parts of equipment would become a good option so I would go back to slowly upgrading other equipment. Hope that makes sense!
I personally don’t get involved in “what is build enabling” arguments because for me it is arguing the semantics, not what actually matters. I would say if a unique is the best in slot for a build by a significant margin, it is a unique that you need. This becomes more of the case for weaker builds since sometimes you do need that upgrade to progress. But in my opinion arguing over things like Exsang is just derailing the topic. Even if you removed BoH and Exsang from the game, there would still be stuff people would feel the need to grind for their builds and arguing that they don’t need that specific item won’t stop them from feeling that way. You can’t make people have fun by arguing and at some point gotta accept fun is different for everybody.
Remember, there still needs to be a game this isnt a movie. The progression does not come without playing. if you feel that you need an item, two things could possibly be happening. Either the item is too rare then it needs to be, or your expectations dont line up with the progression curve the devs have laid out.
And to be brutally honest at some point the devs just have to cut out people who have no desire to actually engage with systems. This is probably one of, if no the easiest non d3 game to get items in, it sounds like some people just have expectations they need lowered.
Fun is different for everyone, but I think there is still simple limits that have to be put on games or they are no longer games.
I guess my question amounts to this, what is the correct amount of grinding an item should take? and why does trade become the go to answer in solving that problem.
This is why I bring up specific items, cause its almost always some problem item that people expect they need, when really they are just setting expectations for what you need to actually just progress and play the game.
if trade is added and does not reduce the grind enough to be satisfactory then your problem isnt solved, and mine as someone who does not wish to see it is made worse. its a lose lose.
In the end I just hope that the overall trading will be am easy & nice experience to have for every1.
One things for sure. If Trading will be similar to Path of Exile, I personally will not ever even the slightest even try to bother with Trading.
No it’s not. If you want to play a build for whatever reason and you ned one item for the build to gor Brrrrr it’s not an personal issue.
This is a game after all and no second life working sim and if the dev offer items for certain builds and these items are mandatory so the build works there is a design flaw.
Look at the Squirrel thing for example. You can play without the whole Squirrel thing and your wolves do the trick. Same with the bee build you can play without it and have a good time.
Then there is stuff like Exsang… Even if you use it for a Lich build for example untill it drops you need to skill your skills and passives completely different and after it dropped you need to change a hell lot of stuff to get back to your former strength.
This is not about engaging in systems, this is not about the amount of time people can comit to a game it’s just standart hack & slay design because without rng H&S would be done in little to no time or needed to evolve and someone needs to do something new for starters.
Oh come on this question is answered a billion time by a lot of games. Higher power rarer item and this is a good thing. BoH should be A nerfed or B a 1 in a million drop because this item is stupid af by design to just throw one example in the room.
Exsang is such a bad item for people who have problems to get an exsang things get better and if the droprates aren’t touched the people who suffer a lose are those who imagine they suffer one because of their bias.
Its really not that stupid, its only stupid because normal shields are so bad.
The way this game handles block is imo, a huge problem. They tried to create a system I think that was distinct from others in genre by not making block a stat just everyone goes after. its meant to be a thematic defense similar to dodge where sentinel can get access to block mechanics to cement him as the “sword and board” guy.
BoH ideally exists as a way for other characters to get good block defenses.
The reality is that BoH is used even by the class with the most access to block because block passives are weak, or require to much investment.
like imagine shields had a baseline 50% block chance, and a well rolled shield + 5 passive points got you capped block chance, suddenly bastion being only nearby is a weakness not a positive and would lock it into being a pick for non sentinels.
I tend to ramble but I feel like so many of the “issues” people want trade to fix, are not issues trade needs to fix.
“I need BoH, its too rare and too strong” okay so leave it rare but buff normal shields. Now BoH is worth looking at still, but not the only shield worth putting on.
“Exsang needed for LL ward, its 2 rare” okay so make exsang specifically more common.
Literally any problem that exists that people use for being “we need trade for this” can just be fixed with a little nuance in design which is way easier to do then adding an entire monster system of trade they now need to balance for all items not just the problem ones.
Basically if your car has a few blown fuses, just replaces those. You dont need to do a full remodel of the car.
This is one of the biggest issues I have with LE there is no build diversity anymore and every class got everything. Next we get a void themed spriggan because reasons and it looks cool.
No class that has no shield passives should be gifted with 100% block chance. They removed this from Sentinels because they don’t wanted 100% block chance to be achiveable and now we have this abomination.
If there are enough drops and playing dont feel lioke work then F trading big time. Then again I played D3 seasons for 100 hours and only got 2 ancient items and oh boy I was mad about it. RNG is the problem people have issues with but then again not all as it seems ^^.
Yeah but you need to trade in something to get the fuses… sorry that bad example just was to much of an invitation ^^.
As brain dead monsters we kill, we don’t have palyable bridpeople for example even when they are ingame and aren’t that bad if their god don’t go cray cray. Just because something is there it shouldn’t be the sole reason why you should use it in any other way.
