if you have 16 base minions, then that tells me you aren’t using archmage or dread phalanx, which are the talents i pointed out as being tremendous nerfs to necromancer output (as opposed to just not being buffs)
Indeed but compared to the average number of minions wraith build revolves around I put it in the category of low minion build. Personnal interpretation from me.
But effectively taking those nodes that limits to 1 or halves your minion number doesn’t seem outweight the advantage of having just more minions.
If I have 5 minions with 10 base dps and 200% increased damage for example, my minion will deal 10x2x5= 100 DPS.
If I take a node that reduced to 1 minion but only gives me 80% additional dps, my minion will only deal 10x2.8 = 28 or 10x2x1.8= 36 (depending if it’s an increased or more damage modifier). So I’m dividing my DPS by at least by 3 by going for such nodes.
it’s not quite that bad (for archmage) but short version, it’s slightly stronger than 3 mages, but weaker than 4 mages, and necromancers can get 5 mages.
meanwhile dread phalanx is a hard 20% weaker if your max skeletons is an even number, and becomes an actual damage nerf at 9 or 11 skeletons (while at 5 and 7 it’s a very small, almost insignificant damage boost)
Archamge doesn’t seems that bad of a trade off with the more 130% and the double projectiles.
For dread phalanx, if I take my example again with 10 skeletons
10x2x10 = 200 -> (10x2)x1.8x5 = 180 so you still lose dps.
archmage doesn’t actually double projectiles, it just give it 2 more (from base 3) so a 66% increase, assuming all 5 projectiles hit a target, archmage does at best 382% increased damage, which is worse than 400% normal damage from 4 mages.
also, as i stated, dread phalanx ALWAYS is a 20% damage nerf if your max skeletons is an even number (due to the nature of rounding up) you seem to think i was arguing that it was good?
No, was agreeing was you that it was not a worthy node, at least compared to what having more minions can provide you.
ah, well your example used an even number, so even at 4 it’d be 20% less damage, which was why i thought you were trying to make a counter argument to what i had said.
I’m curious, why is it necessary to limit build options when EHG provides you with non-minion or less minion builds that are viable? The minion heavy builds are a love letter to the old D2 Skelemancers who loved to fill the screen with Skeleton Mage spam along with their sword wielding brethren.
There will always be a “top” build for any particular class in any particular game. If you’re a min maxer and you don’t like the build you’re being shoe horned into, then you can decide whether you want to min max another class, adjust your priority for playing the strongest build in the class or stop playing the game entirely.
You haven’t offered a compelling reason for limiting build options other than you don’t favor mass summons and you want to be the strongest necromancer in the world without them.
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I’m pretty sure the devs never wanted so many wraths to be arround and a fix will happen. Yes it’s bad by design if you loose effectivness if you want fewer more potent pets and it don’t work out because only strength in numbers count. Then again it would be sad if more minions don’t get better results.
I simply think the take on minions is a bad one and I would like a different approach like:
-8 T1 Skeletoons summoned everything is normal
- sacrifice the possibilty to summon 8 and summon 4 T2 skeletons that are stronger and more durable and have a skill they use
- sacrifice more, get even more buffed pets with more skills to use
And so on and so forth for all kinds of pets. Same for BM instead of summoning a wolve pack just summon a lone wolve that’s bigger and more badass. There are plenty of options to make every kind of build viable technicly but it seems like we get a rather blunt approach here.
Just one reason more to never touch pet builds they are simply to wonky to even think abou them… from my point of view.
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I can’t speak much of the necro side of things, but I am running a direct comparison of running Beastmaster with a typical pet army and a Beastmaster that only runs 1 pet to take advantage of the partner nodes. The one-pet loyalist is only level 67, compared to 77 for my pet army, but I had not realized how stark the difference was until I ran Chapter 9 with the pet army for the first time - it was so much easier than the 1-pet loyalist I was blown away. I have found multiple reasons why this is the case:
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Avoiding enemy 1-shots is much easier for the pet army: since you’re not in the fight, by definition it’s a lot easier to notice enemy wind-ups and avoid the most dangerous hits. Additionally, since DPS is much higher for the pet army, it’s a lot easier to dispose of enemies before they do their most damaging attacks again and again.
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Gearing: simply put, it’s a lot easier to put points in minion damage, minion melee damage, and minion leech when you don’t have to put a lot of points in things like purely defensive buffs for you (since you’re in the thick of it as much as your pets are) and offensive buffs for yourself like the passive points in the Shaman tree that give you attack & cast speed with an active totem. I’m getting several hundred % more minion damage with my pet army than with my 1-pet loyalist, and that has everything to do with sacrificing a lot of gear and passive points to ensure that I can inflict damage on the toughest enemies.
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AoE: Simply put, having more minions means that you have a lot more AoE to deal with annoying boss adds and groups of tough enemies. As it is, Serpent Strike (which I use as my main damaging attack since it provides the DoTs I need to weave in and out of battle and provides a great amount of Dodge rating so I can stay in the fight for longer) just doesn’t match up against having 4-5 additional pets wailing on a group simultaneously.
Necromancers are a lot harder to balance for fewer pets because the pets are expendable by design, so it pays to go for an extreme offensive approach. The main point is that you have to consider multiple factors when trying to approach pet builds in this manner and it’s a lot more complicated than just “have fewer pets, but the pets you do have are bigger and stronger.” You have it right when it comes to giving them new abilities, but as the above poster pointed out, you have to do it right so that you don’t end up having a straight damage nerf by choosing the “fewer but stronger minions” nodes. I’ll share more once I level up my 1-pet Loyalist to match my existing pet army build so I can have a more comprehensive analysis.
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Balance and Performance will be always the issue, not even talking about multiplayer part, where it could ruin experience for other players pretty easily.
Even 50+ minions is like 30 too many. There is tons of reasons, why things like these should not be allowed and should be hard capped somehow. I understand for many “summoner lovers” this wont be very popular solution to a problem, but i believe, it’s necessary
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How are people getting so many wraiths? I’ve never had more than 20 before they start dying.
That 250 Wraith build was made specifically for Arena farming. I doubt you would want static wraiths in a monolith. I admit it is abusing new skills and there should be a minion limit of maybe 100. Honestly the work to get 40 minions in a boss fight is a feat in itself so I think the count is fine.
Also in POE, my usual army was 34 and 74 with Vaal Summon Skeletons.
Here in LE, I have been able to consistently run 35 minions, peaking at about 50.
I would almost say there could be more minions, not less.
There could Definitely be more skill buttons.
I think the investment to summon those numbers matches the risk, not in the 250 Wraith broken build, but the “Normal” Necro feels fine.
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Stack intelligence and cast speed and have a good mana pool.
Drop about 10 per mana pool, rip blood to get mana back up, repeat.
3 casts, 6 seconds, 30 wraiths. GO!
I’m at 97 mana and I can get about 35-40 out when I have too.
To Many!? Ok now I gotta break 300
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Be careful Boardman you’re gonna burn your PC!
I have 2 fans now. 1 fan cools down the other fan so i get twice cooled air going into the pc full blast.
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haha, that’s what it takes now to be a summoner god
Completely agree. Multiplayer would be a mess and the builds promote a pretty passive playstyle which is against what the LE dev team have tried to stay away from in their design intent.
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