You still can’t understand the fundamental difference between a game that has bis standardized gear with that of an arpg where gearing is based on RNG in general. They very nature of an aRPG is gambling based on your view. Maybe you are looking at the wrong genre?
They very nature of an aRPG is gambling based on your view.
No, it isn’t. I’ve literally said RNG != gambling, and posted studies and articles discussing the specific reward structure of gambling, and explicitly stated that RNG/grinding are an inherent(and enjoyable) part of aRPGs. Gambling is not either of those things. Maybe you’re looking at the wrong thread, that would explain your replies. Well, sort of.
I always try my best to understand people, but tc you are literally a tryhard here. Posting links about gambling addiction and even loot boxes because of a crafting system? Its an arpg, literally a game based on rng. Every thing from hitting an enemy to what drops is rng. There is no evil behind the crafting system, no catalyst to prey upon those with addiction issues.
Im down for to support a good cause, but this aint one of em.
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You have a process where you know the outcome and the chances of success. You decide if you want to keep going, increasing the chance of failure or stop and use what you got. It’s not gambling.
Strongly disagree with OP. One of the things I hate most about POE right now is the direction it’s taking of heaping RNG on top of RNG and it just feels really bad to play.
Yes there is a small gambling aspect to crafting in LE but it’s still pretty deterministic and a far cry from lootboxes and P2W korean MMO gambling (WTF?!).
I am not a gambler at all, I hate gambling. I love the crafting system in LE, it’s my favorite in any game I’ve played so far. Yes it can use from improvement but the core concept of it is amazing.
Your really stretching the term gambling to its limit there mate.
Just because there is a 5% possibility of there not being any milk in the shop when I go there doesn’t mean that I’m taking a gamble going there for milk.
Anyway, not going to spend more time on your ludicracy other then to say that if I could downvote a topic this would be it.
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there is a 0.01% chance i will get cancer when i drink this water but 99.98% chance it will quench my thirst
ah shit, caught myself gambling, shouldnt drink that water. 
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I think you all are missing the point of his post, which was elaborated on near the end of the post. It is the “feel bad moments.” They are actually a really good reason a lot of people won’t play this game, and early on it is even worse than endgame.
I can see the Steam reviews:
RandomSlob: 1.2hrs played
I found a cool weapon, I went to upgrade it with more damage, I did two or three times and then it fractured. I tried again, I failed again. Uninstall.
You make a nice item, just to get it one tier away from being good, and bam it fails and is now just a wannabe good item.
As a game designer myself for board games, this is one of the things you do not want, a feel bad moment with no good purpose. We aren’t talking about you not getting what you want, but talking about you basically gambling and failing with no chance of redemption. It is much more beneficial to have at least some way of mitigating that chance to 0% of a fail.
I think more resources is the best way to go about that as it then allows a solid risk vs reward structure, use less have a chance to fail, use more, always a success, but you require more saved up. This allows each person the ability to play to their comfort level and at their own pace.
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The last time GGG tried to introduce something like that. They had to subsequently remove that option from the game.
It’s funny that Daoist is actually smart, makes rational points and is relatively polite considering the posts here; yet nobody has managed to write a coherent response.
This is starting to look like PoE forums, except even more white knighting (:
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Can you give examples of games where people gave up because they failed a 80% success roll of the dice? And where others support them and say how bad it is and how much they hate having to RNG…well, anything? Come on, there must be a way to prove that such evil gambling will affect the sales.
Crafting in this game is so easy …
Umm, what? D3’s crafting system is literally “Reroll my item again” and hope it gets good rolls/becomes ancient.
You can’t decide which rolls you go for, you can’t decide anything but the legendary you want to reroll. And if you fail, you have to farm more materials.
Please explain how that is less gambling than Last Epoch crafting, where you can decide what item base you want, what rolls you want, and which stats you want to prioritize (aka add first), and if you fail, you get to keep your unfinished item, and have to far more mats to try again. Only that even the mats have a kind of “controlled RNG” through runes of shattering.
Your whole point is just completely backwards.
His point isn’t rational and he wants to change the crafting system just because he doesn’t like it. Should we all just nod and agree with him instead of give our option as well?
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It’s funny that you find yourself qualified to judge who is smart or not; coherent or not. Looks like the trolls of POE forums are infiltrating 
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I get your whole point of wanting to sound smart on the internet but you have completely missed the purpose of crafting. The idea of adding crafting like this, which both D3 and PoE, two super popular ARPGs, have had without issue, is to remove some of the RNG of drops so the game does not get stale if you are grinding for extended times and just getting super bad luck on drops. Crafting in these regards are meant to help you make changes to an item that already has good stats, not make a new item from scratch. Now in this game and PoE you CAN make an item entirely from scratch from crafting and make it top tier, but it would require a very large amount of crafting materials and luck. In addition to the gearing aspect, it also just adds another layer to the game which is a good thing, it gives you something else to think about in terms of how to best min-max your character. If you don’t enjoy crafting you don’t have to do it, you can just grind away and only use the crafting items to boost stats and not create new items.
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I disagree with what you think.
Also, are you old enough to be gambling in our online casino? Show your id please.
Btw those garbage articles you linked are related to real money. You don’t pay to craft something in this game(HEY! A great business idea here!), and if you can’t handle a failure in general, you gonna have hard time leaving in this world.
So first off, i would like to state that gambling and RNG aren’t interchangeable terms.
- Gambling has to with actual money regardless of currency (real currency or ingame “premium” currency)
- RNG is a random generated number, well not actually random but as close as we can mathematically do it, in other words we could call this a chaotic chance system, this system doesn’t neccesarily involve money.
We can’t say that RNG = Gambling, nor do i think you are doing that.
The essence of your post is to have a more deterministic approach of progression and you aren’t opposed to RNG, but just want to turn the knobs a bit to adjust it so the game was more 60% deterministic progression and 40% RNG or 70-30% or any other combination.
See the quote
And the following quote is where i have to disagree with you
Q: Is it skill-less?
A: Arguably
Q: Is it uninteresting?
A: Not at all, since you have control over what modifier you craft unto the item, and to a certain degree have a control of other factors
Q: Is it designed around a certain brain response?
A: Doubtful and in a manner i would just like to say causation versus correlation, just because there is a correlation, doesn’t mean it was caused by it and it is a typical statistical error to make.
What i do believe though, is that the system is designed to allow for a greater degree of outcome when compared to PoE and i think this is the source of much of the praise the crafting system has gotten, and i could expand upon the differences, but will refrain from doing so, since that comparison is an entire other post in itself.
Now i did your post fair justice and read the whole thing before going ham on my keyboard and took some time to further dissect and understand your post.
So here is my response to it.
I can see the appeal for a more deterministic approach, where a player is eventually rewarded for having played the game 200 hours or more. And with the rewards increasing with more playtime (your grind proposal), but i also believe that a system like this would with time heavily favor those who can put in a lot of hours and would leave a lot of casual players behind.
Also part of the appeal of an ARPG, at least for me, is the chance versus risk (call it risc reward if you want) and in my opinion it sits within the core of an ARPG.
You play hardcore and go slow, low risk and low reward. You go fast and suddenly you are running a greater risk, but would also be dropping more items, hence greater reward.
Now this mantra often resonates throughout ARPG’s.
And in this case you seem to be arguing towards removing or at least reducing mantra.
I personally think that’s the wrong way to go and i think in a way that would reduce the “oh boy” feeling when you craft something huge, if you knew there was a certainty to craft the same thing 20 hours later.
And to respond to some other posts:
I can see why you would think this, but it’s not entirely true.
One of them is before killing mobs who drop loot and the other is after killing mobs.
Now if you could craft a great weapon and then with that steamroll content you would be dropping significantly more loot, than putting the RNG on the mobs and hoping for a good weapon to drop and then being able to farm efficiently.
True, but the time spent would be significantly different (dependent on drop-chance of course)
Well it really isn’t, we cant say that gambling and RNG are the same thing.
I fear that some media spin has gotten to you, in regards of all the lootbox, microtransactions, P2W articles/critique and what not that has been circulating the gaming industry the past few years.
RNG isn’t inherently bad, hell a lot of games have them, i would even dare to say that most games have them to some degree.
Gonna be real honest with you and tell you that this right here is honestly the reason why i took the time to write up this response, to have the discussion and while we may never reach an agreement, we will hopefully get a better understanding
I think you might be better off playing RPG’s like Divinity, Dragon Age, Skyrim or the like instead, as i stated earlier and as @bustar4o has also said, RNG is at the core of ARPG games.
Close, but we need to look at the what the risk is.
Gambling implies monetary risk. In most ARPG (actually all i can think of) this “gambling” doesn’t carry any monetary risk, just arbitrary ingame-currency and playtime.
Now i never played D3, but hasn’t it often been criticized for that? Well not directly, but the system implemented favored huge time investment? And became a chore? (i may be completely in the wrong here)
Now i recently discussed something with a friend of mine about crafting and item-level and how to incentivize higher item-level farming and how to add some better reward while reducing the risk.
I will probably come back, edit and link to that.
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Wow! I abolutely don’t care if the curent crafting system is like gambling or rng or what’s the differens between these two terms. That doesn’t matter.
For me the current system is fun. You can decide what to craft and you can increase your chances by investing more stuff. And when you fail there is a very high chance you can still use your item.
I like it. No matter what you guys call it.
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A lot of good thoughts and explanations have already been given about “why this system is rather good than bad”. I nearly have nothing to append. So I’ll confine myself with several statements …
- I like this system, so I’m with those who appeals to its merits.
- Last Epoch uses well know and well served random-loot system and …
- allows adding EXACT item modifiers you choose
- this action has low chance to fail
- even if it fails you keep your item fully functioning
So, where’s gambling in this new features? Where’s “neck or nothing” ? There’s none. Last Epoch allows us to manage this randomness, allows you to decrease its negative effects and to get items you need at almost any stage of the game. Isn’t this a good evolution of a core random-loot system?
P.S. I’m not a big fan of 99% trash drop, but the topic is about crafting and not about drop itself.