I agree with that statement. But we’re looking at a hypothetical where nobody actually knows what the degree is (because just calling it N times greater, where N is number of party members would be very wrong), and automatically pushing back on it anyway. That seems to me like it’s not actually about the degree, but the perception of advantage. Does it not?
How much have you considered the possibility that people who are concerned with efficiency in a video game to their own detriment and inability to have fun have an unhealthy relationship with video games?
I mean this genuinely and not as a dig - That sounds like a very sad and unpleasant way to engage with something that’s supposed to be a fun passtime.
Emphasis mine.
This sounds like you’re agreeing with the idea that it is not necessarily a valid concern when other players are able to gain an advantage through coordinated cooperation.
Probably. But you’re not going to get me on board with the argument that food and Last Epoch items are in any way comparable enough for that to be relevant to what we’re talking about.
What claims? That they exist? That we shouldn’t judge them for behaviors they can’t control or evaluate them by the same standards as neurotypicals? “There is a wide range of neuro-divergent conditions, some of which can cause compulsive behavior” is not a statement that requires “professional qualifications or statistics” to make. Any reason you found to be offended by a simple acknowledgement of existence is one you made up in your head. And I think we both know that if I hadn’t acknowledged it, you would instead be accusing me being an ableist through omission.
Cool! So am I. That makes me an authority on every type of neuro-divergence and how they manifest themselves, right? Just like it makes you one, apparently, right?
That’s just the same argument on a different side of the coin. If multiplayer is too much better than solo, “everyone” will feel compelled to use multiplayer because they can’t keep up otherwise. If multiplayer isn’t better than solo, “everyone” will just play solo because there’s no reason to go through the additional work of finding groups.
These are not my arguments, but they’re arguments that are being made.
I completely agree. Neither style should require any carrot to play, other than personal preference. Otherwise, the other will be marginalized, by default.
I just feel here are already enough, built-in, advantages to group play, that I don’t see it needing any other boost(s). If anything, modes like “masochist” and “self-found solo” play need them… but even then, that would take away from the spirit of those modes.
Hello everyone! I just wanted to drop in with a few words. We appreciate the community having discussions such as these, and we of course do pay attention to them for general feedback and sentiment from the community, however we do want to keep it constructive and civil. So please try to stay away from attacking players providing opinions, and rather debate the points themselves (ie. ad hominem fallacy attacks).
To provide some context from our view: The realm of multiplayer is a constantly evolving scene. Not only are we planning for a long life cycle for Last Epoch with many years of content which will keep changing the landscape, but we constantly keep a close eye and adapt things to a healthy balance with community perception. When Multiplayer releases, we acknowledge that there will be all sorts of different team combos and strategies emerging which can change the power balance. We will be keeping a close eye on this and making sure we adjust as necessary. To set reasonable expectations, we don’t expect 0.9.0 to be able to immediately release with the desired balance due to the community’s ability to find all sorts of crazy little tricks ( you guys are amazing at this )
For the intended balance of multiplayer, it is our goal that a coordinated multiplayer group will be very similar to solo but if one has to be more efficient then we plan to lean a little to the coordinated group - but we’ll be again keeping a close eye on the gap. Our primary intention is for Last Epoch to be a fun game, rather than a competitive game - and mechanics are designed to reflect this. Of course ‘fun’ is highly objective, but we will prioritize “fun” over “fair”, while trying our best to prioritize it being both.
Thanks for the input. I will definitely concede that MP will, by its nature alone, be more efficient. I think my concern is how some games also add additional carrots to entice people to group up – enhanced drop rates, improved drop quality, increased xp, etc. (think D3’s Gold Find/XP bonuses).
Drops are instanced - every player gets, and only sees their own loot. This is not changing for multiplayer, and again we’ll be keeping a close eye on any sort of mechanics the community finds to greatly change the balance of loot in multiplayer.
Experience is also individual: xp is not provided to the group and split, it’s provided directly to the players, the xp is the same solo or in multiplayer. It also follows the same mechanics for xp curve as solo (eg. Being level 5 in a level 20 area will only grant xp as if getting it from level 10 mobs). Again, certain strategies may allow for efficiency differences, but we’ll always be keeping an eye on it.
We are not planning on any content to be only available to multiplayer.
In order for 3 to occur, that means trading can be between anyone or there is no trading. As party only trade would provide benefits to MP only. Since we know there is trading then it becomes complicated as they don’t want people to need a third party tool for anything in the game. And they don’t want to make an Auction House.
D3’s issue is that there is massive benefit to paragon farming in groups and so I certainly want any parallel progression systems, at the level cap, to not have an advantage in MP. Although the existence of SSF ladders, which D3 unfortunately doesn’t have, can alleviate that to a certain extent.
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