How are the Devs wrong? I think maybe you are implying something for them that they aren’t saying.
Take for instance Dodge roll. I was extremely sad to see it added. My concern is they will add too many mechanics and turn this game into something it’s not supposed to be. (Souls type).
However the Devs added this mechanic and then also added in ways to replace it. Either with Crabs or Terrify etc. So this is fine because…It’s up to the player.
At the END OF THE DAY… It should always be up to “The Player” How they want to play the game. That is “IF” the Devs do a good job. It’s the Devs job to create something fun and the players job to show the Devs how to play the game.
So you can add mechanics, dodge roll etc for players who enjoy it AS LONG AS YOU DON"T force players to play that way. There should be ways to play this Genre as intended and Tank and spank aka Hack and Slash.
Make sense?
I dont like this terminology in this Genre. Since at the end of the Day everything should be easy with BiS gear. This game isn’t about can you beat X its about farming it fast. You look at the mobs and they explode and you pick up the loot. The End game is loot hunting not some difficulty bar.
Not for this genre. ARPGs (D2 type games) are about attaining crazy insane gear that makes you a God. The fun part is finally becoming a God and then farming everything easily which is enjoyable and relaxing.
I haven’t made one yet there is a maxroll one that gets the base idea right.
I’ve never played a Rogue they seem OP but it’s not my play style. GL with that build people seem to enjoy them.
I play FG 1h + shield, what I use to mitigate incoming dmg:
1 - HP more than 2,5k - 3k is very cool with sufficent dps eHP around 20k for phys and 7-8k for the rest
2 - armour 75% reduction to phys is ok
3 - endurance threshold 700-800/50-60% is ok
4 - block chance 90%+ with 50% dmg reduction is ok - the more the better
5 - life leech min 6% - the more the better, you can outleech almost everything up to Cl300 with 20%+ LL
6 - resistances all 70+
7 - a bit of evade is cool 10% great
8 - belt with cleanse all - mandatory piece of eq
9 - boots with %move speed - the more the better
10 - all possible passives to lover ot dmg
11 - crit dmg reduction 100%+ on gear
12 - dmg of time taken as armour - the more the better - usualy 50%+
So thats number-wise.
I mix all of these stats to be able to facetank or close too facetank everything up to 300CL.
The most important are:
1, 2, 3, 11, 10, 5, 4
The rest is nice to have bonus so you dont have to runing around in circles.
I hope it would be helpfull. There is no one thing that works for big hits in LE - it has to be good conglomerat of all above. Well at last IMHO
So I’m now taking a page out of the D2 play book. Just had a poison tornado map was grinding away at it they were chunking me. Then it dawned on me why am I doing this? Just teleport to town and reset the map!!!
Went back in got Wengari spire. I immediately teleported out reset the map. Went back in got a good map completed it in 2 mins, WIN!!!
Just like in D2 doing Baal runs you get a Souls map you teleport out reset it. Just gonna do the same here. Why do these atrocious mechanics when you don’t have too. When you can just do fun maps instead.
Well LE is very different game than D2 and I know for sure because I played tones (and many others).
In LE you just cant simply outgear enviroment because it scales infinite. What you can is optimising the build to smash 300-350cl and that is the goal. At last IMHO
In LE skill of moving around and doging incoming dmg is 100x more important than in other games of arpg (excluding souls games).
Just my 3 cents
I don’t think it is at all. LE is a D2 type game. The Devs are huuuuge D2 players. They are also PoE players and PoE was the actual expansion too D2 not D3.
LE is a Diablo type game and is extremely influenced by that. Same with PoE which is a Diablo game.
Yes u r right but I mean in close details and type of gameplay. You just can stay and facetank like with d2 hammer palladin, you need to move out of the incoming dmg from time to time, at last 350cl+
In d2 i could facetank all game with my palla, in LE it is not possible.
In an infinite scaling system, you’ll always reach a point where you’re one shot, where it takes longer to kill, etc.
But his point was that tankier builds usually deal less damage. Whereas ranged builds usually deal more damage but are squishier. If tank builds also deal more damage, what’s the point of playing ranged builds?
Build archetypes are usually created (if well balanced) around “I do this better than the rest, but in turn I do this worse”. Ranged builds usually deal higher damage by sacrifing tankyness. Tanky builds usually sacrifice DPS.
If one archetype has both high DPS and high tankiness, while the others only have one or the other, then there is no point in playing anything else because that archetype is clearly superior.
It’s the 1.0 unbalance we’ve seen, except now instead of just a few builds it’s a whole archetype.
This really is a philosophical difference of opinion. Not all players feel like you do.
For example, I don’t really care about becoming a god and farming everything easily (which, as I pointed out, doesn’t really happen in an infinite scaling system).
What I enjoy in ARPGs, ever since D1, is watching the build grow and come online. In LE, when I usually finish empowered monos I just create a new character. Because leveling the character and watching it grow is the most fun for me.
Grinding over and over for BiS gear is extremely boring for me and is what led me to PoE burnout.
Infinite scaling is an interesting concept not one I’m a fan of.
With that said what I’m specifically referring too is End game which is Pinnacle bosses 300 corruption, T4 Julra etc. These should all be very easy with BiS gear and farmed fast. Their mechanics can be ignored or at least should be able to be if designed right. These games are about farming them 1,000’s of times not did you beat them.
I don’t agree, good builds usually scale defense which scales offense.
The point is Class fantasy. One of the most important aspects of the game. Some people love ranged, traps, spells, minions etc. You are playing them because of their Class fantasy.
I’m playing a Tank to fill that Class fanstasy and now being able to Dual Wield shields is a huge one. Just because I’m a Tank doesn’t mean I shouldn’t do damage. In fact when you are melee you should do very high damage because you have to be in melee range. So your burst should be top tier.
I hear what you are saying. I don’t think I can agree at this time.
It doesn’t mean you don’t do damage, but it does mean you should do less damage. Being in melee range isn’t very relevant here. What is relevant is that, if you’re a tank, you can withstand a lot of damage. You can facetank for a long time. So you don’t need as much DPS.
Ranged builds need DPS because they die when a mob sneezes their way.
It’s a sort of inverse formula. You start with the premise:
-Do you die from every hit? You need huge DPS so you kill before you’re hit.
And then you start trading DPS for tankiness.
Ultimately, if you’re immortal you should do very very low damage.
And I should know because I had an immortal build before 1.0 which was a minion retaliation FG that had 100% uptime on rebuke. I couldn’t die, but boss fights lasted 30 minutes. Which is a fair trade for immortality, tbh.
I wasn’t talking about the devs, but anyway, moving swiftly on…
Yeah, I don’t like it either.
Oh, so you think I’m "objectively"wrong in my opinion? I think the scenario you state can be the case if the difficulty is capped, but if the devs have an infinitely scaling difficulty (as LE & D3 do) then that can’t be the case, as eventually the content will out scale your previously god-tier gear. This is why I say it’s a philosophical difference.
I just can’t agree with that. Being in melee range you should do explosive huge burst damage. I’ve always played Tanks to not just be Tanky but do extreme damage.
So we can respectfully disagree there.
Again take a D2 Uber smiter. Extremely high damage that can’t miss and you stun lock everything while being a Tank. It’s an OP melee Tank build.
Now playing this way you are lacking clear speed and Aoe. However just because you are a Tank doesn’t mean you shouldn’t nuke Elite packs or Bosses.
That’s actually pretty cool. Love seeing weird things like this and that is what makes this genre great. Doing some MEME specs and being OP with it. However S tier Tank builds should do fantastic damage. That’s what makes them S tier. They have both.
Zerker/Hork barb. 1 shot everything while being a tank with highest Magic find.
Zealer
Tesladin
Fury druid
etc…etc…
The point remains I just don’t agree that if you are a Tank you should have average damage. The opposite is usually true if the Class design and Itemization is great. LE has great itemization and the Class design is coming along. So we should see Super Tanks that nuke Bosses. It’s perfectly fine and fits a Class fantasy.
Example is the new Dual Wield FG which is just a D2 Uber smiter it’s really nice of the Dev team to give us one. The interaction is the same basically with grief and smite from D2. You get tons of flat damage and that is scaled with gear and talents.
None of them are as strong as a hammerdin, a light sorc, a javazon, etc. They’re outclassed in DPS by them all.
This actually comes historically from D&D. Melee classes were always stronger at early level, but at high levels ranged classes always outperformed them in DPS, in exchange for being squishy.
They do try to change it with each new edition, but wizard/sorc remains the strongest class in D&D to this day, as long as no one sneezes in their direction.
Wrong the Classes I listed have way higher single target Damage
Javazon is about clear speed in Cows
Light sorc again Cows/Countess/Chaos runs
Hammerdin again Chaos runs.
Their Dps is decent but their Aoe is great and lack huge burst damage.
Where the Classes I listed are Tanks like the Smiter/Zerker/Zealot etc excel at huge damage.
Okay but you can still be a Tank and do more single target damage because you are melee and 1 shot stuff. The benefit of the Sorc is overall control of a larger area via spells. You can play a Tank have less mobility face Tank and Nuke everything. What you lack is the mobility and clear speed. Which is fine.
Light sorc had the highest potential DPS of all builds, because of lightning ranges. Though I’ll admit that they don’t have the highest average DPS. That was simply a fact, at least until D2R.
As for the rest, I’ll admit I never liked melee, so I could be biased.
I can agree with that.
I was mostly looking at a damage/tankiness spectrum but it can be more of a damage/tankiness/clear speed (of which mobility is a part) one.
So I’ll concede to your point that you can be tanky and deal a lot of ST damage sacrificing cler speed, you can be tanky and have clear speed in exchange for lower ST or you can have ST and clear in exchange for being squishy.
Dude, don’t waste your time arguing with this DJ. This guy has been on the forum longer than he has been in the game, he’s an IMBECILE who’s obviously never seen an uberristam in his life, everything he says makes me and my friends who have been playing D2 since the beginning laugh a lot. He seems to be someone from the LE staff who tries to divert focus from LE’s OBVIOUS failure to establish a defensive system that even minimally works by justifying this $%¨& with “look at D2 it was like this”
D2 was an RPG (ROLEPLAY) so a tank was a tank, LE is a game to please STREAMERS so the only defense that reasonably works is Ward that’s why an old man in a dress tanks 400,000x more than a paladin with full plate and towershield… roleplay is the last thing the devs of this game think about, they only worry about mechanics, not for nothing the game looks more like a Souls in everything, from the number of players to their retention, after you kill the last boss you never come back.
Disagree and many games design their Tanks for damage. I’ve been playing Tanks for over 25 years. I know how they work.
Tanks hold Aggro by doing a lot of damage. I can log into Cata Classic right now and play my Prot warrior and will compete with Dps because Tanks are designed to have competitive damage. It’s part of their job.
With that said. Just had this item brought to my attention. Drops off Pinnacle Boss so the 20% less damage taken would be huge considering FG also has a passive 10% less.
