Gender locked classes

[Katalaeia]

@NotTheAuthor

for example: Knights are big and strong, and Men, as a concept, Are Big and Strong, so knights Must be men, and Cannot be women.

And when females can be Knights, the armor leaves a lot to be desired in terms of practicality as a defense mechanism. That’s just as annoying. (I don’t mind there being, um, “fantasy” options, but I also want armor that looks like it can save my life, thank you very much.)

@NotTheAuthor

wherein healers are Only Women Allowed

Yeah, I’ve hated this in a lot of games where female characters seem to be eternally banished to the back row.

I find myself conflicted with a lot of this. I am a female in real life, and I prefer to play female characters in games. I see an in-game avatar as an extension of myself into that game’s world. It’s a form of escapism where I get to “be the Hero”.

I have no problem playing a game like Graveyard Keeper where the main character is male, because the whole story behind the game is based on a specific person. That doesn’t bother me a bit. It’s like reading a narrative instead of being part of the narrative.

In Diablo 3, I always roll female characters. I like being able to create whatever class I want with the limiting factor being how much fun the class is to play instead of how it looks.

In PoE, I’ve only ever played Witches, Rangers, and Scions. I’ve had build notes for rolling a totem-based Hierophant for 3 or 4 seasons now and I have yet to pull the trigger because I don’t like the idea of playing a male character.

In LE, I’ve only got one character so far, a Necromancer. I’ve been toying with the idea of creating a Sorceror for a while. If playing as a female were an option I’d have one already. I’ll probably still roll one eventually, but it just feels awkward. Escapism is a big part of games for me and it influences my choices in games. (Narrative-style games excluded, as I mentioned above.)

@NotTheAuthor

Since there’s demand for those kinds of stories, why not ask for official support when we can? And on a third hand shooting off from the second, it’d be sick as hell. You can’t ignore that, it’s actively part of the issue.

That’s why posts like this are important. The more often it’s asked for, the more it makes its way onto the game development radar, and ideally, the more often it actually gets implemented.

@NotTheAuthor

The same mindset goes hand-in-hand with making “more refined” races of pale skin and “more bestial” races of darker tones, or making every woman exclusively sexy. For the sufficiently wary, or sufficiently weary, one warning flag may as well serve as all of them.

+1 for this as well.

[Nefer]

@Katalaeia

And when females can be Knights, the armor leaves a lot to be desired in terms of practicality as a defense mechanism. That’s just as annoying. (I don’t mind there being, um, “fantasy” options, but I also want armor that looks like it can save my life, thank you very much.)

I very much agree. One of the things I hated about Wolcen is how even in full armour, the women characters have high heels. And the armour they put your sister into at the start for her default… And other games too, where the women look ridiculous in skimpy stuff without options to cover up properly.

@Katalaeia

Yeah, I’ve hated this in a lot of games where female characters seem to be eternally banished to the back row.

I find myself conflicted with a lot of this. I am a female in real life, and I prefer to play female characters in games. I see an in-game avatar as an extension of myself into that game’s world. It’s a form of escapism where I get to “be the Hero”.

I, too, for similar reasons prefer to play female characters, but to me, it’s not so much a big deal if I have to play male to get a particular class. As long as there’s some equality in classes. But I would love to see one of these gender-locked games have the barbarian as a kick-ass warrior woman! And I almost never play a healer, partly because I find it boring, partly because as a woman that’s what people expect I’ll play (while I prefer to tank).

@NotTheAuthor

The same mindset goes hand-in-hand with making “more refined” races of pale skin and “more bestial” races of darker tones, or making every woman exclusively sexy. For the sufficiently wary, or sufficiently weary, one warning flag may as well serve as all of them.

Thank you for bringing this point up! So agree.

[DominicP343]

Thanks for the perspective, it makes sense. Like I said I struggle to wrap my head around it since it’s not a huge issue for me.

[Katalaeia]

@Nefer

One of the things I hated about Wolcen is how even in full armour, the women characters have high heels.

D3 does this too with the female Demon Hunter. It immediately makes me assume she’ll die after breaking her ankle ten steps outside the starter area.

I don’t mind heels being a thing but I’d love a transmog that gives me a regular-looking boot. Options are a good thing!

[XLVI_carpo]

Here are a lot complaints about female characters looking too sexy in fantasy games. I’d like to know the perspective of a female player. Is anybody here or are only men talking here?

What about male characters looking too sexy? Male characters often are very good trained. And I have to admit that when I have the choice and create a customisable character I would take the options to look more like Arnold Schwarzenegger than Dany DeVito. But this is as unrealistic as a Warrior Princess in high heels.

[Katalaeia]

@XLVI_carpo

I’d like to know the perspective of a female player. Is anybody here or are only men talking here?

I guess you missed this:

@Katalaeia

I am a female in real life, and I prefer to play female characters in games.

To answer your question, I don’t honestly focus on the attractiveness of characters too much. I don’t think the male Barbarian in D3 is attractive at all, as an example, but I do think he’s a great example of what a male Barbarian would look like, and I think he’s plenty badass.

My main ask other than having both genders as character options in non-narrative-based games is that I’d love to see a little more parity between the genders when it comes to armor models. One specific instance that annoyed the crap out of me was during the Cataclysm expansion in WoW - one of the raid zones had an armor set that I thought would be perfect for my Paladin…only for it to feature a chest armor with a bare midriff when she finally got one to equip. On a male model it looked like a standard chest armor.

I’m not a prude. I’ve got absolutely NO problem with revealing armor (for both genders) in games. I just don’t want it forced on me because I roll a female character I’m including high heels in that (looking at you, D3 & Wolcen).

[EHG_Mike]

That’s definitely a game pitfall that we will avoid. When we’re designing different armor types for the characters, we are attempting to make them logically. There is a comic strip out there that I love which highlights the issue so well. It’s of a male and female character in an RPG each with very exaggerated gear, full plate for the dude and a chain bikini for the girl. The guy says something like, “ugh, that won’t protect you from anything” and walks away. She takes off the armor set and the whole chest, body, bikini, everything is connected as one armor set and underneath is a normal character with normal clothes on. Just cracks me up as the only way it could make a shred of sense.

Katalaeia, we know that people prefer to play specific genders in many cases and we would love to make that possible for you. One day we might have gender options for our characters. I can say that we’ll do our best to keep the armor that we do have out of the range that the comic I’m referencing is like. It just wouldn’t fit with our overall aesthetic and it’s not the sort of game we’re making.

(I can’t find the comic but it was really over the top)

[NotTheAuthor]

Male objectification is a problem too, and one easily overlooked (as I did myself). Body type diversity is more common among male characters, but heavyset or properly fat playable characters of any gender are rare,(1) and characters in their older years are rarely frail.(2) It ties back to that idea of Things Can Only Be One Way: Heroes in an action combat games are… active in combat, necessarily, so it’s assumed that they’re fit and healthy.

What is fitness and health, and who is making that decision, with what information? Can people who are not of this “ideal” healthiness not be heroic? Do such people exist in the world at all, and in what narrative and social roles? Who’s making those decisions, and why?

And then of course there’s the adjacent concept of what “beauty” is, why we have to conform to that, why that’s “heroic” to the exclusion of alternatives… and so on, and so forth.

It’s troublesome and exhausting to think about it all, even if you’ve done it before (especially since you’ll do it all again), but that’s why ya gotta bring it up, innit?

…At least Eleventh is aware it’s of concern at all. Guess we’ll just hafta wait and see.

---

1. The only character I can think of off-hand in Last Epoch itself that could be described as fat is maybe Admiral Harton? and he:

   • is a villain
   • is inhuman
   • visibly has no actual fat

   which is a little unfortunate.

---

2. The specific character I think of when recalling frail elderly playable characters is Diablo 3’s male witch doctor. He’s got:

   • bad posture
   • sunken eyes
   • wrinkly skin
   • the shakes

   and hey! guess what! the female variant doesn’t have any of that! which is a little unfortunate.

[XLVI_carpo]

The weird thing is that if you have a system like LE with no option to customise your char and they look athletic or even sexy there always might be people complaining about sexism.
(I don’t say anybody does this here, pls don’t get me wrong) But when there is an option to change the appearance of your char very few people will choose to look fat or ugly or something else.

@Katalaeia

I guess you missed this:

@Katalaeia

I am a female in real life, and I prefer to play female characters in games.

Whoops… Yes I missed that sentence. Now your comments make more sense to me .

I remember a time where I as a male always played female chars. This was when Guild Wars first came out. I played a female elementalist with a very short skirt. The weird thing was that many of the other people treated me a a female. So when I started WOW I chose only male character models.

So when playing a game where I can choose a gender for my toon I always choose male chars because of the reason @Katalaeia mentioned:

@Katalaeia

I see an in-game avatar as an extension of myself

But I have no problem to have no choice and play a female necro.

[GriggsOvCiaran]

Don’t mind if my character is female/male but i guess it’s always good to have the choice so everybody is happy !!!

[Katalaeia]

@EHG_Mike

Katalaeia, we know that people prefer to play specific genders in many cases and we would love to make that possible for you. One day we might have gender options for our characters. I can say that we’ll do our best to keep the armor that we do have out of the range that the comic I’m referencing is like. It just wouldn’t fit with our overall aesthetic and it’s not the sort of game we’re making.

Thanks, Mike, for reading through my rather lengthy post. I did see Mox’s reply and I understand resource constraints. As I’ve stated before, it’s not a make-or-break issue for me (although, as with PoE, it will probably influence the kinds of characters I wind up playing) and I’ve obviously already paid to support the game

My main motivation for posting at all is that I do feel this is an issue that doesn’t tend to get enough attention overall in the industry, though, and when it’s brought up it tends to get loudly shouted down by (typically) male gamers who have come to expect every female character to look like a cross between a supermodel and Xena the Warrior Princess.

And yes, male objectification happens too, which is why my comments indicated that revealing vs concealing should be an option for both genders. If a dude doesn’t want to stomp around looking like He-Man or Conan, he should have that option.

@EHG_Mike

There is a comic strip out there that I love which highlights the issue so well. It’s of a male and female character in an RPG each with very exaggerated gear, full plate for the dude and a chain bikini for the girl.

I’ve actually got one of these saved on my computer. It’s a picture of a dude in full plate but with an arrow sticking out of a small gap in his helmet, and a lady in a plate-kini with about a dozen arrows sticking out of the tiny plate pieces while her skin is unharmed. I chuckle at that stuff too because it’s just so damn prevalent that everyone accepts it as normal (which, honestly, is part of the problem).

@EHG_Mike

Katalaeia, we know that people prefer to play specific genders in many cases and we would love to make that possible for you.

Like I said, I’m happy to support LE in its current state. The game is outstanding in so many ways already. If this eventually comes to pass, though, I feel no shame in saying I’d happily buy another supporter pack at that time as a thank you.

[Katalaeia]

@XLVI_carpo

I remember a time where I as a male always played female chars. This was when Guild Wars first came out. I played a female elementalist with a very short skirt. The weird thing was that many of the other people treated me a a female.

Yeah, I’ve heard of dudes rolling female characters in games like WoW specifically to try “getting free stuff” from people. BS like that gives female players a bad name by association and pisses me the f*** off.

[XLVI_carpo]

Yeah, it’s always terrible when bad behaviour of few people affects the reputation of a group.

So there’s hope that some day - when LE is a successful and healthy game - there will be customisable chars. Hopefully not having this at start is not a deal breaker for that many people.

[Nefer]

@Nefer

I, too, for similar reasons prefer to play female characters, but to me, it’s not so much a big deal if I have to play male to get a particular class. As long as there’s some equality in classes. But I would love to see one of these gender-locked games have the barbarian as a kick-ass warrior woman! And I almost never play a healer, partly because I find it boring, partly because as a woman that’s what people expect I’ll play (while I prefer to tank).

Just as a note that there is at least one other woman here.

I do appreciate the views of Eleventh Hour, from Mike, about the armour. Thank you.

As for the aesthetics of characters, both male and female (which, a bit offtopic! I love that Dauntless just chose to allow people to pick body types, without deciding if specifically male or female, so inclusive of NB), it’s all about options. I do understand that in ARPGs, as opposed to MMOs, it tends to be more about armour customisation rather than the character itself. The existence of skimpy armour does mean that the body type and “beauty” of the character matter more. Armour that covers more makes it more of a moot point, and there’s plenty of customisation options available still.

For character customisation, I’m one of your very few people who does things like make my warrior queens have things like burn scars over half the body and face, and/or lots of scarring from previous battles, and generally chooses non-human races, when available. And they are gorgeous to me, because they are still strong and fierce and have lived through some crap.

The funny thing is that when I see very pretty, skimpy female characters in game who also are fine with people giving them stuff because they’re “a cute girl,” I always assume it’s a guy playing a female character.

Anyway, I did read the thread, and appreciate constraints on the gender-locking, and it’s really not a make or break situation for me (although I always play female when I have the choice, because of her being my hero and representing me), but thought I’d share my thoughts some more on this. And because I do strongly believe that representation is important, I hope that if one day LE allows gender choice, that they also allow skin colour choices. But this is getting more complicated now, isn’t it?

[XLVI_carpo]

@Nefer

I hope that if one day LE allows gender choice, that they also allow skin colour choices. But this is getting more complicated now, isn’t it?

Nah, I don’t think so. Different skin colours are way easier to implement than armor models or body types, I think,

[Katalaeia]

I did want to add one more note to this thread as it exists so far, and say thank you to my fellow players (and the devs!) for being so respectful and accepting of other players’ views. The LE community in general seems to be significantly less toxic than certain other ARPG communities, and I hope that continues.

[NotTheAuthor]

@XLVI_carpo

Different skin colours are way easier to implement than armor models or body types, I think

On the surface it seems that way, but to pull it off Right you do kinda wanna get appropriate voice actors and probably make at least a few alterations to the base model.

…And to pull it off Wrong is potentially grounds for a lot of people to ask for refunds, at best.

If they don’t got resources for the former, they certainly ain’t got 'em for the latter. But that’s just how it goes, right?

[Llama8]

Don’t most games that do it just basically add a slider (or a number of hues) for skin tone? Rather than have an additional x number of voice actors/actresses do every line in the game & have the one used determined by the skin tone chosen?

Has any game ever done that? Has any game with multiple skin tones ever had “a lot” of people ask for refunds (due to skin tones), “or worse”?

That probably came across in a douchey way (it wans’t intended).

[megaangelo]

@Katalaeia

LE community in general seems to be significantly less toxic than certain other ARPG communities

Blockquote
yes a certain arpg title that was very recently released in particular…i’ll give you a clue… the name of the game sounds like it could belong to a sheep

[XLVI_carpo]

@Katalaeia

The LE community in general seems to be significantly less toxic than certain other ARPG communities, and I hope that continues.

This is propably because of the fact that we can spread our poison ingame with our Acolytes and Primalists.

This community really is very nice. But I have the fear that if the game ever gets successful we will be overwhelmed with people of the standard gaming communities and their corresponding toxicity level.