Yeah that’s what this topic is about. They said most of the passive changes were in Void Knight and Paladin trees, and considering there’s very little minion damage in Forge Guard already, I’m pretty sure they can only make it better.
Keep telling yourself that …
But numbers don’t lie.
And by the way, do you know how easy it is to get 10% attack speed? It’s available to every class thru items and passive/skill points … Similarly, giving yourself another 20% damage increase is easy.
If I have a 1H that does 100 damage, and a 2H that does 200 damage, and I want to use the 2H with a shield … The 2H now does 160 damage, which is still 160% more damage than the 1H … You won’t even notice the 10% attack speed reduction lol. And if you did, put 2-3 points in a passive node, or add 1 attack speed affix to your gloves … Problem solved.
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So your suggestion is to funnel even more of your limited points into it. and your numbers are wrong. 200 damage - 20% = 160 then you also must take the initial 200 damage and -20 for the -10% attack speed then take the value of what you lost from each in total and minus it from the original 200-40-20 so roughly you get a net gain of at most 40% damage for a point in the skill and the additional minus of never being faster movement than baseline. Don’t try and say you can just get the attack speed back as you could do that without using the node same with adding damage back. You must then realize you either now focus on making block worthwhile with more block chance and block effectiveness thereby sacrificing damage or just ignore it and basically waste the point in minimal returns from block. The numbers may change even further, is the damage loss from this additive or multiplicative. Is it global damage or weapon damage.
Well your math is a bit off. its not reduced, its LESS attack speed. so that means its 0.9 multiplier to attack speed. that means it takes something like 11-12 to actually get back to 1.0 speed values. (1 * 0.9) + (0.12 * 0.9) = 1.008
lets take two real world examples.
For our first weapon, we will take the fastest highest base 1h sword which would be dawn blade.(ignoring katana)
its 50 base damage, and we have t6 flat phys, for a total of 100 flat damage. it has 1.2 speed. which means it has 20% more attack speed. So we can think of its dps before any attack speed
as 120, 100 * 1.2 = 120, your aps in game is higher but basically Damage x Attack speed is a true mechanic.
Then we have the fastest two hander flamberge, same thing, t6 flat phys, it has 181 flat damage, and 1.1 speed.
So it would then become (181 * 0.8) = 144.8 damage, with (1.1 * 0.9) = 0.99 speed. This makes its dps out to be 143.352 which is 143.352/120 = 1.19 or 19% more damage.
Now these are just two examples of items that share similar attributes, it gets really clunky cause you cant really compare the implicits of items. As for example 1handers have crystal swords, and 2handers can have really big base crit etc etc.
But the general idea should be present, which is that if you were going to use 1h/shield, its probably always better to opt into this node. its pure upside dps wise other then gamefeel. (feeling slow sucks) But if you were a 2hander build trying to get more defense, you are taking a pretty hefty penalty for that defense, so you better make use of it. But you can leverage the downsides by being a cooldown based build, like a VC build only loses 20% damage, instead of 28%~ because they are not dps based but cooldown based, so attack speed has very little impact.
The real interesting mechanics are the ability to now use unique shields, with unique 2 handers, which might potentially open up mechanical combos never possible before regardless of any stat penalty.
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In your calculations of a 2H build you forgot the fact that a shield also has offensive stats. So if you take this node, you won’t take the full damage hit, because you do recover some of it with the shield affixes.
It’s true that 2H builds tend to use big slow hits, so attack speed shouldn’t matter much. So you’d basically be replacing a 10-15ish damage penalty for a defense boost.
Shields are weird tbh, it depends on your build. there is a weak melee damage % modifier, as well as physical.
So if you are a non phys build shields do very little offensively.
its hard to calculate just how much you gain or lose, it varies a lot on the bases you use, your damage type, how much crit you have etc.
I think its gonna take a long time really for it to be solved because it mucks up game feel pretty bad for maybe some dps upsides.
An example is the “Virtue of patience” node in healing hands. its 2 points possible, and gives 24% more damage, and 16% less speed per point. At 1 point, its 1.24 damage with 0.84 dps, or 1.04x multplier to overall dps. if you take the second point, its 1.48 damage, and 0.68 speed multiplier or 1.0064 damage multiplier, it actually gets worse the more points you put into it. So unless you are proccing healing hands, its strictly a downside to put the second point in.
The less speed is deceptively punishing, and even if you avoid it, it will make your animations longer which feels worse.
At the end of the day its got so much variables i dont think there is any overarching answer on when to take this new 2h node.
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True, but I would assume they tested this enough. You don’t want the numbers to be so low that you never take it and you also don’t want the numbers so high that you always take it.
So a case where this will be a DPS increase for some builds and a DPS decrease for others would mean it was balanced properly.
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I guess Makszi thinks that 19% more damage is an irrelevance.
Let’s not be dismissive of the damage modifiers on shields. It goes up to 120% melee and up to 140% physical. 120% is the same amount of %inc damage you can find on rings, belts, etc.
No.
Firstly, %inc Melee obviously applies to all damage types, so offensive bonus isn’t limited to physical type. Secondly, builds like Shield Bash and Shield Throw exist, where majority of their damage comes from the shield and the defensive affixes it provides.
There is - I said I see this passive as primarily a buff to FG players who already used a Shield. If your goal is purely to max DPS, you still go 2H + no shield.
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Yeah, I think that is the way.
Pure DPS, you have to choose a weapon with highest flat damage.
That’s not true. Haste is not the only source of movement speed, there’s plenty of ways to increase movement speed without haste.
Anyway, my point still stands, using this node with a 2H is still more damage than a 1H. The node is still worth taking, regardless if my math was spot on or not.
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The node is to boost the damage of a shield user by allowing them to use a two hander instead of a 1 hander.
Based on my maths using non uniques it gives at lest 12% more damage.
The real big thing is being able to use a unique 2 hander with a shield.
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Well FG isn’t a build that is supposed to be blazing fast or need to move out of bad areas. You should be able to face tank anything. With that said, swiftness exist which now looks more attractive with no haste. You can also use Shield Rush which is an incredible movement skill so you can zoom around maps.
Haha no. There is no reason to do that.
There was a bug where they were taking 50% more damage. That bug is fixed in the patch notes. They also got buffed because another bug was fixed with the phantom rings. There is also some new minion tech that should be spicy to keep them alive.
Manifest armor will also be godly. FG will be a slow starter but with Min/max gear one of the strongest builds and downing Uber Abby easily. It’s just going to have so many layers of defense and offense.
FG is the Sung Jinwoo of LE for anyone who watches Solo leveling. Powerful minions and also have insane attack power on the character.
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