Forge Guard rework

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I think it’s the perfect time for this thread having seen 4% of sentinels and 1.1% of over all characters play FG.

Personally I hate a sentinel class has minions - manifest armor/ring of shields. They’re both really clunky and they can assist with shield throw but they shouldn’t be needed. It should ricochet off terrain and objects like in POE (sorry hate referring to it)

People look at Forge Guard and like to think it’s the tank class of the sentinels when really it’s just got a few extra armor nodes which really don’t amount to anything. You have the ability to face tank just as well with VK due to its crazyyyy life leech + max resistances and very high armor due to strength stacking. You can face tank even better with say a judgement pally due to self healing, a few points in VK’s life leech and max resistances. Both of these classes give people the ability to do a crap load more damage with skills that have much large clearing on them.

When you added forgemasters might it sounded so exciting until you also added the haste to block so FG is the slowest class, you shaved off 20% of the damage on a class that already does the least damage (by a long way) and then you shaved off attack speed - again destroying more damage output.

The channelling of smelters wrath makes it an awkward skill to use vs abberoth/uber or in high corruption. The quickest I’ve seen it vs Uber was about 13-14 minutes, saw one streamer known for good builds take 21 minutes. When you compare that to a sub minute Warpath or 1-2 min Erasing Strike (post nerf times) it’s actually crazy.

Ok so I think floor is open to any/all ideas of people who would want to play forge guard but probably don’t due to many reasons. If it was re-worked what would you like to see?

My main point of re-work - Shield Throw - have a node for “ricochet of terrain/objects 1/1” in its tree.

  • Shield Barrage shouldn’t be a node it should be standard shield throw behaviour.
  • There are 7 fire related nodes and only 1 “throwing damage” with 0 nodes for +phys dmg etc so Iron Monger should branch off Spiked plates. Replace where Iron Monger is with a physical node the same as Forge Born but +phys and +phys pen
  • Branching off the Forge Born like node a node like Molten Toss. 25%+ phys per point

I think if Void Knight is void and Pallys are mostly fire then FG should have a heavy standing in pure phys as it is now it seems like FG has some fire, some phys, some bleed. Passive masteries for VK and Pally - damage. Mastery for FG - some resistances and armor in a game where it’s all about speed, moving and killing.

As for the other skills - RIng of Shields, Smelters and Forge. Personally just find them super lack luster and don’t add much to the class. They’re unique but they just don’t perform and obviously by the fact 1% of your over all player base choses this class then surely that’s telling you something. If you’re in that 1% I am sorry but hopefully they make this class even MORE enjoyable than you already find it because y’all are being ripped off right now.

I’ll prob come back and edit this a bunch but that’s it for now x

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I think the trouble is Uber, If you look at the number of builds and classes that can beat Abby it’s quite high with lots of build diversity. If we look at the number of builds and classes that can beat uber it is much lower.

I agree though that FG skills are lacklustre overall and could do with a rework.

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As a Forge Guardian who has played for several seasons and specializes in forging weapons, I have a particularly deep bond with my 12 little swords. I think the feeling is mutual.

Until one day, I dreamed that my little swords said to me: “Now, the bears can unleash earthquakes, the scorpions can create maelstrom， and the abominations can land double strikes… As sentient weapons, it’s not at all strange for us to master the rive skill, or even Multi-Strike or Void cleave, right?”

I think they make perfect sense. But they can’t type to share their thoughts themselves,

so what do you all think…?

Oh, right, the Shield Ring also said: “I’m a shield myself. It’s not strange for me to know the Shield Bash skill—even if I can do Shield Throw too, right?”

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Hahaha, love it. What do you normally skill pair with your sword gang and would there be a creative idea you have in mind that might enhance the gang to a point where it clears more, faster and harder?

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I just commented on the Eterra monthly on fixing FG and shield throw. so I’ll put that here.

FG should get Forged weapons and Manifest armor as their mastery. You pick FG you get 6 permanent Forged weapons to start and Manifest armor. Then obviously through talents and skills can increase forged weapons and their abilities. However they need to be permanent minions. I also would have them not be targetable either, just like Falcon. They really should fight by your side like immortal spirit weapons.

FG could be so cool if they just took some chances. At it’s core FG needs a lot of synergy and design changes. Being Armor capped should increase you and your minions damage they should be permanent and untargetable. FG needs the biggest reworks imaginable.

PS - stop adding in negative mods!!! FG gets to use a 2 hand and shield but then you have this terrible negative mod to overomce. How about NO! Just let FG use ANY 2 hand and shield without the negatives because guess what? They are a master of weapons.

Negative mods is like 1 step forward 2 steps back. Really hate modern gaming companies using this philosophy. Just let design be fun and engaging. So you actually want to play it otherwise it will never be played.

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My shield throwing loving bro - love it - ill quote and like in there!

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Sweet I get so frustrated lol. I’ve been theorycrafting and playing Sentinel builds in prep for next season and what I just wrote comes from a few playthroughs I just did. Really wish they would just fix FG and give it a proper mastery, QoL and minions. Rework all their skills to be fun and engaging from the start.

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Yeah hard all 3 sent classes should be on the same level with dps. Channelling a big fire explosion for a melee class makes no sense (to me)

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My personal preference in rework would be to make it minion NOT mandatory. I’d like it to be more than minion class. The only FG of my sentinels is shield bash build and it uses manifest armor as a filler skill, because i had no other idea to fill the slot.

EDIT - i meant “NOT mandatory”

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I’ve tried to make Forge Guard work as well as pally or void knight for 2 seasons and its never panned out. The last rework was ok but the downside to the wielding 2 hander in 1 hand isnt necessary at all, just removing that would close the gap pretty good

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Yeah I think 20% dmg reduction 10% attack speed (not sure what % dmg reduction that equals) are both HORRIBLE but for me the worst is when I want to put on a shattered worlds to move fast and I can’t because it changes haste to block - that’s the worst idea ever.

THat node should be 1/1 can equip 2H weapon with sword and thats it - even with no negative effects on it the damage would still be much lower than pally and void knight, but at least a step in the right direction. I think Master of Arms node could be altered too

  • Parry while dual weilding - what? Who plays FG to dual weild???
  • Inc attk speed while dual - read above
  • Strength with 2h weapon should be +3 per point, maybe 4. NGL - again this would help a lot and definitely still wouldn’t put it on par but would be very nice if stacked with 2H + shield
  • Frailty shield - ok
  • reduced crit with shield - ok

The dual weild - I think one of those could be swapped to +inc physical dmg with shield 12% per point 8/8 because FG should be master of pure phys along side the void and fire boys.
Maybe othe other node - attack melee/throwing speed with 2 hander 2% per point or 1% per point and if not attack speed then what?

So from that spam of text - you would equip 2 hander + shield with no down side.
you could then potentially get 24 or 32 str + 96% inc phys dmg and 8% or 16% attack speed.

Sounds decent - when you weigh that up vs what the VK and Pally get in their end nodes say 30% attack/throw speed + echos, 8% move speed and 64% void dmg as an example I don’t think it’s anything over the top + erasing strike and warpath, with WP being a huge bias towards VK due to void well making the VK the only one who can really juice up the extra dmg while spinning longer.

OK gotta stop typing lol but yeah I think those 2 nodes should be fixed as above
Forgemasters Might
Master of Arms

Along with looking at the mastery skills - if the buffs above happen it’ll definitely help shield throw as well as melee skills like multistrike but forge strike, smelters wrath need are just kinda trashy and manifest armor needs to bring something to the game. He doesn’t kill anything and he doesnt buff he just leeches your stats, runs around, still dies to bosses and corruption. Weigh him up vs the bear, sabre tooth, abomination etc it’s an actual joke. He also seems to move the clunkiest out of all of them lol

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They’re both less modifiers, so 28% less in total, assuming your build cares about attack speed.

It’s there if a build does, for options.

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Haha generally I have not seen or heard of anyone ever mentioning “I’m a dual weilding FG” is all I was getting at, like out of those 1% across the whole population that play FG what fraction use dual? There is no other node in the whole tree that gives any benefit to it and it’s right at the end so no other class is using that node, only FG :stuck_out_tongue:

28% - thanks! And as mentioned, crazy. Considering the state FG is already in to give it such a cool option but then to hinder it when even without any penalties the class still isn’t even close to on par with the other 2 sents is crazy~

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Yeah, I know, though not having heard of ut just means it’s not popular, though I’d imagine a dw FG is very not popular… But where does one draw the line is support for “off brand” builds?

Don’t forget that using a 2h weapon give much higher flat damage compared to a 1h & shield, though it would also come with an additional lower attack speed on top of that node. So the “actual” effect on dps wouldn’t be as bad as that.

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I think those comments illustrates perfectly the problem with the FG at the moment, it sits between 2 chairs and it’s uncomfortable af.
Tho personally i agree that when it says “Forge Guard” i think more of a dwarf with heavy armor plates swinging his lava mace and big shield rather than a slim guy walking his swords in leash.
Maybe it’s time for the dev to side properly on this matter.

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That’s the part I love, it makes it actually unique instead of being yet another self-serving DPS machine with a [insert direct damage flavour in here] theme slapped on. I’d even extend that part. Currently, Forged Weapons feel bad due to the need to constantly build them up, whereas the best way to scale them is to increase their number, which makes the problem worse. And if you can’t face-tank an enemy or rather attack something all the time then there’s only one way to keep up your minions.
They also feel quite bland right now. As @user247 suggested, they would be way more fun if they could use skills on their own. That would also make them way more synergistic.

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Needs a lot of rework but FG is not bad in terms of damage and defenses. The other sentinel masteries are just stronger, easier and way flashier. Will wait for the big EHG post before brainstorming what’s best for this class.

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Nah I get what you’re saying re - off book builds but those generally happen because you can support them with something, anything haha not just shield and 2H nodes in the tree - its literally pointless.

Mike said that all these classes have “themes” I feel like with the nodes that FG is armor, shields, 2 handers with armor being quite pointless due to how beefed up the other classes can be due to needing resistances, life leech, even blind and crit dmg reduction etc.

The 2H weapon node just using your basic 28% and melee flat which seems to be first choice most of the time as primary T7 - melee T7 one hander - 65, melee T7 with that 28% taken off is 86 along side losing haste which is hugely beneficial to all builds its the same with say T7 physical dmg % 210 vs 277.

so having 21 more flat dmg or 67% more phys dmg then moving 30%++ slower and swinging the old golf stick slower giving it clunk feel - that’s honestly not worth it.

I’ll also loop back round to original point of how much lower the damage out put is on a FG compared to its 2 fellow sentinels - even if there was 0 reduction on the 2 hander and you did get almost twice the flat 119 max vs 65 max there would still be no comparision to what a Pally or VK can do.

The whole thing comes back to everyone saying “balance” right now we have 3 classes and one of them is lagging miles behind with some really weird skills.

I am fine if they want it to stay the minion class but holy heck fix manifest armor give it buffs or actual dmg - as mentioned right now it’s 100% worthless other than to bounce your shield off for ST.

@everliving it’s not bad in terms of damage but it’s really not good hence my original post about speed to kill uber which is a really ANNOYING thing to have to mark it against. I’ve seen a FG phys Jav build take 19 minutes, I’ve seen a smelters wrath (kudos to that guy) take 13 mins and I’ve seen that LizardIRL guy take about 20 minutes.

I’ve seen Erasing Strike do it in 1-2 mins, Warpath currently sub 30 seconds and Judgement Pally about 7-8 on the bro with the crazy end season gear and Multistrike smite doing it pretty quickly too. Comparitively which is the word we should use when talking about balance it’s just miles off, sadly

Anyways I talk to much lol - sorry! Just feel like the game has a few missing classes right now even though technically those classes are options to chose to play they’re just not on par with all the others, so yeah hopefully they fix with whatever ideas they want.

PS I’m just being passionate about the rework not defending any specific idea of mine being talked about I just like the idea of a 2 hander and shield but as it stands I think its pointless, I feel if it was reduction free we would have seen a lot more FG chars being played since it’s introduction

<3

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FG should be able to wield it without any penalties. EHG and modern companies need to stop with the negative mods. They are so pointless and often go against actual design thematically.

FG also should be able to dual wield any 2 hand and shield. They are a master of weapons and command them.

PS - Dual wielding shouldn’t increase damage taken. It doesn’t make any logical sense. You are already taking more damage by not using a shield to defend yourself. Having this weird made up number saying you should take more damage because you dual wield is very badly designed and doesn’t track in any logical sense.

Also, why can’t you dual wield any 1 hand weapon? You either can dual wield or you can’t. Stop with pointless limiters and negative mods.

FG is a potato and it’s about as fun to play FG as it is to peal a potato. Which is why no one does. It’s the worst mastery across ALL masteries not just Sentinel. It’s reaaaaaaally bad. Their whole design and concept for what they should be doing is botched.

I like EHG but I doubt they figured it out. Hope they take some ideas suggested in this thread and they need a lot of ideas and people working on FG.

You need to fix their Mastery, Minions, Passive tree, Skills. Basically a complete overhaul and move in a different direction. I’ve made my suggestions, EHG has a lot of work to do.

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Don’t worry about being passionate, man. Maybe I’m the one who is too apathetic about it. I have some reasons for waiting but let’s not get into it :laughing:. Anyway here is a few of my 2 cents that are quick fixes.

In my experience Weapon minions are okay, they become good when you discover that the shared pen on the weapon suffix is carried over at 300% effectiveness. Downside, Phantom Grips is most of the time BiS for any type of Forged Weapom Build.

All FG minions are also getting a decent boost with the minion resistance because of the available armor to them. Might do a minion run next season to do get more data.

Most FG melee builds can either run as a dopamine build in 500-800 or play it tediously in 1000+ corruption. From what I’ve heard this is the moment people are convinced to just run VK/Pally.

When FG isn’t a minion build, incentivize it to proc as either a new attack. Like a node that says “When you summon a Forge Weapon, you instead attack a nearby enemy with Forge strike.” Maybe that proc could also be Javelin or even Smelters but smelters suck atm.

I agree 100% on the debuff. Get rid of the haste conversion too.

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