First Impressions of a PoE SSF Addict

Feedback and Suggestions
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And that’s why I posted in feedback/suggestions. This is not a review, but my saying “I think that you should focus on these things for development”. I’m sorry if I miscommunicated this to people, I was merely making suggestions as to how the game should go. I also want to point out that I said that (so far) it is a great game worth dozens if not hundreds of hours. That is in no way a bad statement to make, no? I do want to stress that I feel very strongly about these systems needing change in order for the game to grow into the titan it should be.

Honestly I would really love to but that’s a lengthy, lengthy blog. It’s not about the items being “good” per se but rather them having value. Finding a really good axe needs to be a great moment, because you found a good axe. With the easy access to crafting the “goodness” of the item is irrelevant because a good drop has less value now. Making a mediocre drop good is easily done with the crafting system. With only 4 affixes the items are way too much ditched into the ‘very good’ or 'vendor". And here’s part of the very complex problem. Crafting fixes this but devalues the items in the process, because of how accessible it is. If for example items had drop-only affixes and/or rares had more room for affixes there would be more value to the items.
Once trading becomes available this is going to be unsustainable, but I’m sure the devs now this.

They kind of fixed this with t6&7, but they’re not rare enough in my opinion for them to have value.

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Yeah I understand and agree with you on a lot of your points. As for the items I also agree but the approach to fix this should probably be unique to LE. I don’t think the crafting system is going away as a core part of item design. The “blue” and “yellow” coloring system really doesn’t work well in LE. As a matter of fact, I always look for blue items because it’s easier to work with (less chance of terrible affixes that I need to strip). Get a blue item with two T5 affixes that I want and I can work the rest in. There needs to be a better way to implement visual cues that is in line with our expectations. A good example is rare affixes. Have rare affixes shine a different color so we know we got something great. Most often then not I just pick up all affix shards without bothering to look at what they are because it’s too much of a hassle. If I can see that shiny drop/distinct sound of a rare affix dropping then that enhances the item hunt experience.

It would also be better if the coloring system is based on total tier and not total number of affixes. Objectively a blue item with two T5 affixes is better than a yellow item with four T1 affixes. T1 - T9 = blue, T10 - T16 = yellow, and T17 - T20 = purple would be the concept I’m talking about. Items with T6/T7 affixes should perhaps have another visual cue (a glow, maybe bolded?) Maybe add another indicator for items with rare affixes. The visual and auditory cues should accurately represent the objective or perceived values of the item (which is determined by the affixes). The downside is it becomes a jumbled mess but the current system is too inaccurate, therefore leading to some players feeling a lack of satisfaction with dropped items.

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Next patch we should be able to fix this with lootfilters.

Same, it’s a bit of a problem. Cause now as a player you just pick up all the shards, not looking what they are (cause that takes time and time = loot) and just placing them from inventory to crafting stash. No need to read them because the crafting is unlimited so I don’t have to choose which ones I take or deposit cause I can store all of them. I usually notice I got a rarer shard in the crafting menu. Good items but not very valueable this way.

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POE Veteran here too. Your thoughts certainly echo mine.

In particular, LE items not being particularly interesting is something I’ve been saying for some time. But, like you, I can’t exactly pinpoint why.

I think it has to do with the fact that POE items have more affixes and the pool of affixes is more varied and interesting. Also, while I started LE loving their deterministic crafting system, having experienced Harvest made me think that is the superior crafting system - not so much the garden and the seeds, and it might not even be Harvest mechanics per se. But the affix tags and trying to block/remove affixes based on tags put an interesting spin to deterministic crafting.

On randomisation, I used to share the same view as you too. Procedural generation of map layout certainly feels like a core feature of blockbuster ARPGs we love (D2, POE). But when I thought more about it, I am not exactly sure that procedural generation of map layouts is necessarily that big of a deal breaker. Maybe it’s just me but I honestly dont pay attention the slightly randomised layout of each map. The small detail might differ, but I would clear my Bog, Promenade, Jungle Valley, Belfry (and the list goes on…) in exactly the same clear path each map. I dont really care, nor notice that the maps are randomised. I also agree with @Grimtok that randomised map affixes doesnt really change gameplay that much for me outside of specific mods I cannot do. I dont think this is very different in essence from stacking certain monolith modifiers which favours my build, or avoiding those that doesnt, very much.

I do think procedural generation makes racing in the campaign areas more interesting for me. But I’ve come to appreciate why LE devs choose to handcraft their campaign areas (they have said they will eventually incorporate procedural generation in endgame areas but campaign will remain handcrafted). The LE campaign world feels more alive to me and I think it has to do with the fact that they didnt need to deal with all those features (like rocks flying in to form a bridge) in a randomised tileset generator. In any case, coming back to the point on racing, while I find randomised campaign areas interesting for racing, it also feels the case that for experienced racers, they also have their mind block out most of the randomness in the layouts and what they are looking for are the consistent “tells” to make sure they process to the next checkpoint as quickly and as efficiently as they can. Once you can do that well, wont it also feel like each sequence of areas are exactly the same?

Anyway, I just want to say that you’ve brought up alot of valid points on how some of POE’s systems are superior to LE’s, and that the latter need to work harder at improving theirs to have a credible shot at challenging the current King of the Hill, especially because of the headstart in content and assets POE have developed over the years. But I’ve seen how this game has grown since kickstarter, and while I am impressed with LE today, something tells me we’ve not seen the full scale of the vision these devs have for the game. I am loving the anticipation :wink: .

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25

If we compare the PoE Beta state with the Beta LE state then LE is the winner from my point of view.
So far things are going good but LE will have the same problem as any new ARPG, the “I want it all NOW because look at [insert random ARPG name here] has it too/is better!” crowd. Noone takes a realistic look at games anymore and want’s newly released games with years of DLC stuff included at launch ^^. Won’t happen. LE makes a good approach and I’m happy with it so far.

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26

Ive played PoE for years and theres a reason its the #1 aRPG and no game can touch it -

The speed / engagement / character building / interaction with the world

None of the other games have it.

PoE also is way more engaging because apart from occasional flask spam there is virtually NO skills you just ‘set on a loop’ and forget about it whereas in LE large amount is just numlocking it and forgetting it - which is really bad design

in LE theres no real engaging mobs to deal with, its ranged or melee that’s it.

PoE has maps/strongboxes and tonnes of other things to interact with.

PoE 1.0 came out years ago and the base game in open beta still has more content than every other aRPG which is complete

I don’t think there is any point to compare them at all. I would compare this game to Grim Dawn as it has virtually nothing in common with PoE

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It’s really important to take into consideration, what is on the roadmap. There are uniques missing as well as a complete new rarity “legendary”.

And still I disagree in the itemisation topic. The combination of crafting and loot in LE is unique.
Finding a yellow item isn’t that exciting because the colour doesn’t mean that much. But if you want BiS items all in yellow (t20 or even exalted) is a meaningfull hunt. Finding high tier affix items with the correct build fitting affixes is exciting. Nobody goes from a blue t10 (2xt5) “easily”. And if you start new or a ssf character you’ll notice that there are very rare affixes that are worth hunting them.

The itemisation may not deliver the same feeling that PoE does. But there is complexity already if you wanna min/max your character.

Honestly, I can’t get, why people put PoE on a podest now that there had been 1 (one) good crafting system with the harvest league mechanic that even isn’t in the game anymore - for various balancing reasons. The rest of PoE crafting is… meh. If you would’ve asked about the quality of crafting in PoE 4 months ago, 80% of people would’ve complained about it. Now everybody is hyping harvest (that had a very clunky building mechanic) that not got into the core game.

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I think it is fair for the community to comment on the current state of LE and compare it with what they (we) think is the best ARPG in the market. It is difficult for us to “take into consideration what is on the roadmap” because we dont know what those items will do and how they will change the item chase equation. The devs here, of course, will know what their plans are and how future systems will change things. If they feel the feedback will be sufficiently addressed by what they have in stall, then perfect. If not, always good to hear how players feel about their experiences when comparing against different games in the genre.

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Tons of PoE builds are 1 skill spam to erase all. One of the most played build across all leagues (cyclone) is literraly one click build (and spam flasks when needed). With the introduction of some recent skills there are more rotation of skills but let’s not pretend that PoE hasn’t been about the 1 skill builds.

There’s a reason why the presentation of PoE 2 has focused on the new gems systems, allowing to do serveral skills build like LE approach.

This is precisely one the main criticsm around the years of the game, its carry on regardless of the zooming philosophy.

Again there is a reason why during PoE 2 presentation it has been pointed out that the pace fo the gaem will be slower than PoE.

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LE combat beats POE hands down. POE has been a shooter/market simulator for the longest time. LE boss fights are way better designed than POE’s. Tons of POE boss fights are just a hot mess of shit (Catarina, Sirus, delve bosses).

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The OP is talking about core mechanics as well and has compared the foundation of both games - not only the current state. To compare these two games’ foundation it has to be considered what core mechanisms still are missing that are planned and how they would alter the current system.

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I suspect you may have forgotten all the ways PoE offers to automate things:

  • Auras/heralds
  • Blasphemy curses
  • Curse on hit
  • Cast when damage taken
  • Cast while channelling
  • Trigger a socketed spell on XXX (both on uniques & the veiled craft)
  • Cast on crit

So unless you’re going to tell me that you’ve never used any of those on any of your builds (or that they are rarely used), I think there’s some hefty rose-tinted glasses going on…

I’d even argue that PoE needs more ways to automate things because you can have more skills in your build than LE can. LE’s limit of 5 means that people often (but not always) take 1 movement skill, 1 long term buff (this is what is best automated), 1 main damage skill & 2 others, either temporary buffs or DPS skills that offset any downsides that the main DPS skill has (AoE/single target).

I think that’s also how you view them, 'cause I tend to view them as either ranged or melee in PoE as much as I do in LE.

I think that apart from acts 1-3 & the core systems (loot, skill gems, mobs, gear, passive tree, maps), everything else that the player interacts with was added since 1.0. Strongboxes were added in 1.1’s Ambush league, for example. The wiki doesn’t say when mapping was added, or how many maps were added after 1.0, but certainly, the Atlas was added after 1.0.

As many others have said, it’s foolish to compare a game still in beta (& a while off from launch) with a game that’s been around & playable for over a decade…

Still rose-tinted glasses here, GD has a lot in common with PoE. They’re both aRPGs, the primary game loop is killing mobs to get loot & level up (& getting stronger). I’d say the main differences are the online/offline thing, maps as an endgame system (& quite a lot more of them), skill gems v specific skills per class, multi-classing v single class (with ascendancies being comparable to LE’s masteries) and the size of the funding that GGG received from players that allowed it to do significantly more than Crate.

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Wait… there are different mob types in PoE? How do you recognise this? Record a video and play it at 25% speed?

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There’s actually 3 types of mobs (I know, my head exploded when I realised this, I hope you’re sitting down), there’s the ones that die off-screen, the ones that die 2-screens away & the bosses that have immunity phases.

Edit: Hah! Nobody noticed my glaring maths error!

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When reading a post like this i really feel for the LE developers. They are really putting a tremendous effort to make a very good sound game. Just think of the number and impact of all the changes that have happened this calendar year alone.

Yet they must find it hard not to get discontented with the endless flow of diametrically opposing views. Many of the comments are said to be “constructive feedback” but are in fact more of “i like the way this other game does it and if LE doesn’t do it like this then i will be really pi$%#ed off”. And in the same breath the same people say “oh this feels like all the ARPGs around so why should i spend money and time in something that is the same”.

It feels like a new club entering the EPL and fans say "ok you are here now so why aren’t you immediately winning the league and beating the clubs who invested $100 trillion over a number of years and have a settled front and back office.

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I don’t think anyone, especially OP, is bashing the game as it currently is. He also said the game, as is, is enjoyable for “dozens and potentially hundreds of hours”. No small praise for an indie project with a modest startup funding and a formal development runway of less than 2 years.

He did say if the game aspire to challenge POE then it requires certain improvement. That is his opinion - some will agree. Others don’t. I dont think the devs are looking for people to sing praises of them all day. And I feel OP has been constructive without being abusive. We should encourage people with different opinions of the game to voice theirs for the betterment of the game, as long as they don’t come across as rude or abusive.

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In addition to what Jerle said, I think the devs probably have thick enough skin to take the useful points from … illworded feedback & experienced enough to desire constructive feedback.

I don’t think that they need us to defend them per se, though having a (polite) discussion to root out the useful bits from topics like this is how we can help them the best.

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LOL… this is pretty much depending on the build you play. Right now in PoE I have my passives running, press ONE button and my potion macro and that’s it because I don’t need anything else and facetank the world while doing so.

Sure people may like PoE above everything else but PoE is an artificaly bloated mess where 99% of the builds use the same stuff and everything else could easiely be removed to show a realistic passive tree. On top of it everything in PoE can be OP AF and playing the game can be mindnumbing and talk about t16 stuff.

LE is in a good spot, Grim Dawn did a good job and there are even some intresting D3 seasons every now and then. I think LE can easiely earn a place among these titels when the game further evolvs and all game mechanics are in place. Sure LE is a construction site atm but everything is on a good way.

Even illworded feedback might be good. I’m from germany and from my point of view almost all stuff in this forum is on the easy side of things and a lot of people are simply in the mind of saying “shit!” if they think “shit!”… it’s honest in the end but maybe not as constructive as devs want it to be :D.

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Thanks everyone for the replies, some good discussion going on here. :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

Agreed. This is a bit of a problem that (to me) becomes more grating the longer you play. I think LE does a great job at not making it a 1-click fest. The builds I have played (enough) have all been using the ful skillset. My two endgame characters did come down to a 1-2 skillcombo.

In PoE’s defense PoE being a market simulator is more because of how players use (or abuse) the trading system. You need trading though, as the devs are aware, to give items value.

I’d even argue that you can’t do a decent build without any of those lol. Some stuff like CwC and CoC come at a price though, for example taking up a socket or being less effective than self cast. I think it’s important to note that tradeoff, the game doesn’t really want you to automate everything.

If there’s no point to compare them, then how are you supposed to give feedback? Am I supposed to wait until the game is released and then say “hey remember that mechanic you introduced in 0.4? It really sucks. I didn’t want to say anything because well…it was still being developed!”. If I was complaing and saying “hurr why isn’t Runemaster or Rogue implemented the game sucks” or “durr theres no content in endgame” I would agree with you more.

Imagine if some guys were trying to build a house. But one of the walls is tilted. By your logic its stupid to point it out because they haven’t finished the whole house yet (Yes there’s houses with tilted walls but not the point).

Thanks. It’s good to know that I’m understood, I feel like I needed to emphasize this way too much that the game is really good in its current state.

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Yes, I’ve noticed that about German/Austrian speakers… :wink:

There’s a big difference between saying “XXX is shit” & saying “XXX is shit because YYY & ZZZ”. The former is just having a go at someone, the latter is constructive feedback.