Faction Lock on items and Changing your Faction

Once more. A mixture of slices making a single cake at best.

That’s not double-dipping, that’s choice. It has No upsides and no downsides.

Not relatable to the class at all. If I mix class aspects you get a new combined thing which has upsides and downsides. If you enforce the respective limitations for changing - without progression loss included - then it allows to do that… as was the initial task for such a system in the first place.

Yes, I’ll probably end up with three quarters of the cake in the end… but that’s fine, I give up the quarter for the ability to enjoy both.
But I won’t get punched in the gut until I vomit already eaten cake up.

I’m not talking about double dipping. I’m talking about the fact that traders currently have 1 mechanic to choose from and non-traders have 1 mechanic to choose from.
You want to change it so that traders have 2 mechanics to choose from, knowing that non-traders will still only have 1.

In terms of cake, you want to change it so you can choose from both cakes how many slices you want from each, knowing full well that non-traders will still only have one flavor to eat.

That’s the inequality I’m referring to.

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That logic is… no logic.

If you like trading… you go trading.
If you like the prophecy mechanic… you go for the prophecy mechanic.
Both can dislike the other. What are you even talking about that it would inherently favor one? That’s a insane statement actually. Extremely baffling.

That’s the insanity I’m speaking about there… you can’t even imagine that someone simply does enjoy both mechanics… but one more. For you everyone is inherently ‘a trader’ if they do trade. Uncaring if the only like trading and detest the target farming method of EHG… or if they actually do enjoy both.
The same the other way around. You seemingly can’t even wrap your mind around the fact that there are people which enjoy the prophecy mechanic… but also do enjoy trading.

That’s no ‘black and white’ thing.

It’s only so for you.

This is not about prophecies. As I said, I hate prophecies, but I still use CoF.

This is about people that hate trade never having anything for them. EHG gave them an exclusive toy to make them feel equal.

It’s basically about equality between trade+drops vs drops-only. Of course traders like drops. Everyone likes drops. Not everyone likes trade, though.

Maybe it’s easier if we go to the extreme to get the point across:
Let’s say we remove the exclusivity. Now everyone gets MG and CoF at the same time.
-All traders will use CoF. Because everyone likes drops. You don’t even need to use prophecies to benefit from it.
-Non-traders will still not use MG (and then feel bad because the game is, once again, favoring traders).

Does that make sense?

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The same… prophecy/bazaar… trading/loot-shower… doesn’t matter. It’s two mechanics which are ‘supposed’ to be equivalent in standing.

One person likes one.
One the other.
The third likes trade more but also the loot-shower a bit.
The fourth likes the loot-shower more but also trade a bit.

No darn difference…

What are you even talking about?
You’re putting the non-traders onto a pedestal… and it was never about that.

The split was 50/50, EHG wanted to make a mechanic hence pleasing both sides. So don’t shove that bullcrap into it making EHG be ‘saviors’ or something of that kind. That’s actually kinda disgusting…

First of all, there is no exclusivity currently, hence it doesn’t uphold. Also there wouldn’t be exclusivity afterwards either.

So you’re starting with the wrong premise already. Won’t uphold, wrong example.

Won’t go into the follow-ups since you ignore the limitations between them, hence the switching cost making it not worthwhile to do that.

So:

No sadly.

Also as a PS:

If Trader go into CoF they get nothing for trading… no items to sell (everything is supposed to have the no-trade tage while you’re in CoF anyway… otherwise EHG screwed up already) and also should not get any resources to pay items with (Hence why Gold is crap, and anyone sane seeing the issues early agreed since before it dropped in 1.0 even). Also you wouldn’t get rep for MG so not even extra access.

What’s the upside? Ah yes… none.

Same if you go MG and ignore CoF. You wouldn’t get extra drops. You wouldn’t get upgrades for LP, you wouldn’t get extra idols, you wouldn’t trigger prophecies.

So once more… what upside would you have?

And ultimately… if you… for example add a flat (yes, not adjusted, not willy-nilly random absolutely BS quality) changing cost of 100k favor… you would only have downsides switching anyway, without being able to afford the respective upsides of usage coming over time.

You will never convince me that there are players playing a diablo-like that don’t like better drops.

They actually didn’t. If that was the case, we’d have one single faction that would try to please both.
What we do have is one mechanic pleasing those that want trade and a different mechanic pleasing those that don’t want trade.

Of course there is. Right now, you can be MG or CoF, but you can’t be both at the same time. So they’re exclusive. You’re either in one or the other.
That was the whole point of my example.

So if we remove that exclusivity where everyone is both MG and CoF at the same time, everyone would still use CoF, even if just for the better drop rates. There wouldn’t be a single person saying they don’t want to use it. But people that don’t like trade would still not use MG and feel left out.

Again, that’s the inequality I’m talking about. Does that make sense now?

It doesn’t. There are still drops that can be sold. Supposedly ones that weren’t affected at all by CoF.

Some would actually make sense. Why wouldn’t you be able to trade Nemesis drops, for example, if being CoF has exactly 0 impact on what they drop and they would have dropped the exact same thing if you were MG?
I don’t want to trade, but I’m not opposed to some stuff (as long as it makes sense) being able to be sold.

So if you want to have an MG character and a CoF character and sell the odd thing that drops him, sure, go ahead. It’s not like you’re double-dipping because you would have gotten that item with MG anyway (or even without a faction).

If there is no upside, why would you want any of this?

But there is an upside: namely, you can switch to whichever faction best serves the current gear progression you’re after.
So we go back to the same issue of people that don’t like to trade not having the option of choice, while everyone else does.

Inherently incompatible.
Hence impossible.

Which was never even remotely talked about. So senseless to even discuss it. I even distinctly mentioned the switching limitations needing to be included.

I mean… how much more do you need to contort to make it work in your mind?
I think my last summary was quite on point.

Even less so. You know… if I had the choice between becoming a millionaire or gain a random superpower… well, I would need to think. But gaining both without anything limiting it at all? I mean… what are you even arguing about? :rofl:

Shouldn’t exist.
Deisgn mistake. Simple as that.

Because you’ve chosen to abstain the trading faction. Allowing those to drop as tradeable is double-dipping.
That’s why.

Also… it makes absolutely no sense because of the setup…

You’re rampaging wildly flaying about but that… that’s where you actually lack to see the issue? :joy:

If I have a CoF character and get all the upgrades… and a MG character… I only need to play the MG character enough to get favor to sell items.
So I absolutely bypass the Gold limitation which CoF has. Also I’m absolutely bypassing the lowered drop-rate to make up for the ability to trade in that case.

Really awful design actually.

Choice. Player-agency.
The removal of a noob-trap.
The removal of a mechanic which actively removes progress for one which doesn’t.

You see… I want a smooth enjoyable experience without nonsensical bullshit standing in the way of it. Where I can make my choices properly and not be nudged into a situation only to find out I’m now stuck despite being told ‘you can switch’… because the expected cost vastly exceeds any reasonable and acceptable limits to do so.

Not everything is about ‘gaining an upside’. I don’t get why you even think about that.

100k favor does counteract this quite severely. Also if you switch you need to re-invest time to progress the faction through reputation, hence counteracting any time saving you would realistically have.

Hence why Gold is crap for MG as rep there is nonsensical anyway for limitation, allowing proper direct gameplay effort to align with your rewards rather then some willy-nilly extremely badly chosen limitations of access that make exactly zero sense.

Where did I say this was talked about? I did say “Maybe it’s easier if we go to the extreme to get the point across”.
And in the extreme case of having both at the same time, every single single player will use CoF. While many people still won’t use MG. There won’t be a single person saying they don’t want to use CoF.

The only issue I have with your suggestions is that right now noone has a choice. If you want to trade you go MG, if you don’t want to trade you go CoF. You can’t switch between them without massive progress loss, so you don’t actually do that unless you’ve made a mistake and really really want to change.

What you are proposing is giving a choice to a part of the playerbase without giving a choice to the rest. That’s the inequality I keep talking about. Does that make sense now?

You know what you are describing can be applied verbatim to mastery respec, right?

Except that legacy characters already have both factions at max rank, so they don’t.

Nope.
Not even remotely.

Both factions are on equivalent standing.

CoF gets no stuff for trading dropped anymore (which is already double-dipping)
MG doesn’t get gold for their trades (which is already double-dipping)
Both factions are entirely separate.
Rewards aren’t removed, only progression chance. There are exactly ‘0’ cross-interactions.
The barrier for switching willy-nilly is upheld, and quite stronger then currently even.

Nah, really can’t.
See your class as a system to advance, like the rep from the faction.
You can’t advance both at once. You only can switch between them.

Your level is the tiers.
Hence you need a new character to advance it.

You’re trying so soooo hard to make that mastery equivalency working… but it just doesn’t…

So? Legacy players also have different characters in different factions… so what specific sort of progression do you wanna stop there?

Those limitations aren’t relevant there, otherwise the current system would look even worse then it already is anyway if you wanna optimize it to the dot.

What does that have to do with anything? You keep missing the point.
You want some people to have to choice to switch MG and CoF when they feel like it. But non-traders will never join MG. So they have no choice. Likewise, the tradelords you were referring to (which don’t really exist in LE) also won’t join CoF.

So you’re adding a choice to a part of the population that is like you and likes to switch around the playstyle of the day without giving the rest of the players an equivalent choice. Because they still don’t have one.
How can you not see this?

I actually wasn’t trying to compare this to mastery respec. Just that your arguments can be used verbatim to defend a frictionless mastery respec.

I’m not trying to stop any progression. All I’m trying to stop is giving a choice to some people while not giving a choice to others.

Factually wrong.

And since all hinges on that it’s absolutely senseless to go further on.

And how does a non-working verbatim be used as a defense for something else… when it doesn’t work? :stuck_out_tongue:

Really… it’s ridiculous.

It can’t be factually wrong because I’m a non-trader and if you gave the choice to switch freely, without any restrictions, between MG and CoF, I still wouldn’t join MG. Ever. You could even let me keep all the gear, all the ranks and all the favour and I would still not join MG.
So it’s not factually wrong.

I would like to switch my masteries around.

That’s how.

Ah yes, you’re the cumulation of all personalities existing.
That’s clear-cut proof. How could I ever think otherwise? :rofl:

‘You’ problem. Not general one.

Yes, by passing over the bit stating

Because context clearly doesn’t matter.

No. But it does goes to show that some players won’t ever join MG. How many? We don’t actually know.
So we go back to the poll where half the people don’t want to trade. They don’t want a choice on switching between trade and non-trade. They don’t want to trade.

So you’re giving a choice to some players and not to others. How many players get given the choice and how many players aren’t given one? We don’t know. But we do know that some will have one and some won’t.

Fine.

I want to respec my mastery on my level 100 character, but I have to pay 10 million gold to do it (because season 2 will have this). That’s BS.

There, happy now?

The problem here is what “reasonable and acceptable limits” are. To you, they’re one thing, to me they’re another, to another player they’re yet another.
One player will say that 10 million gold is too much, one will say that it’s too little and another will say that it’s just right.

And the opposite exists too.

So you want to hinder people having an option which gives you no downside simply since you don’t enjoy that option personally?
Kinda shitty if you ask me.

Yes, because formerly we were told ‘it won’t be possible’.

Hence the counter-side. It was clearly separated for a reason… and that reasoning has simply been taken away and everything upholding it hence. Obviously not good either.

Goes both ways.

No game takes away progress when you change from one faction to another.

No game has mechanics implemented which take away progress unless they specifically are made to enhance gameplay itself in some way (like temporary removal of items, having to sneak without equipment through a section as a example, many different more existing).

Games have tried to implement that and it always backfired, so it’s also grounded on gaming history that it’s not something to ever do.

Measurement of success is based on how close to perfect equipment is in loot based games like LE. Hence removal of the ability to use it is also removal of direct success. (Also a major reason why durability mechanics have mostly been shifted out in favor of more improved systems upholding the underlying needs. Exceptions apply).

Do I need to present more or are the either nigh universally accepted aspects I mentioned or the very highly agreed upon following enough?

Not really. As I said, if you go to the extreme of letting everyone have MG and CoF at the same time, not a single person will say that they don’t want to use CoF. They might even not use the prophecies, but they will use CoF for the rank rewards alone.
Whereas non-traders will still not use MG.

But even if there were, you would just be furthering my point: yet another group of people that aren’t given a choice either.

I’m not hindering anyone. Right now, every player has the same number of choices. You’re trying to give more choices to some people and not others. That’s what seems shitty, if you ask me.

Especially when, after years of having less choices than traders, non-traders are now treated as equals.

You haven’t addressed my point. The argument you used to justify letting you switch between factions is equally valid to ask for the removal of any friction in the upcoming mastery respec.

WoW would like to disagree. If you change faction, you can’t wear faction specific gear anymore. All your quests that are in progress are reset. Most achievements progress is reset. You are removed from your guild. Even your friend list and ignore list is reset.
And you’re prevented from changing factions again for 72h.

New World would also like to disagree because they reset your tokens on faction change.
Albion online would also like to disagree. Changing factions will result in loss of standing.
For honor removes all season rewards if you change faction.
Mortal Kombat X removes all points on faction change.

I’ll say it straightforward now since you’re clearly asking for it by now presenting a non functioning example that obviously does jack-shit in taking the aforementioned worked out and presented details into consideration.

Piss off with that.

You actively try to.

Afterwards too.

No I don’t. All examples you provided failed spectacularly and you’re making a clown of yourself by now.

And that what it boils down to seemingly.

‘Now it’s my time, grovel before me pesky traders!’

Disappointing plainly spoken.

I did, you ignored it.

Edit:
I’ll actually add something to it.

Imagine your mastery as a faction.
LE hence got 15 factions.
Mastery change reduces the count of factions to 5.
That’s a reduction of content simply.

Not the same context at all. Plus the aforementioned aspects.

They’re presented as non-compatible opposides at war with each other.
LE doesn’t uphold that in even any relevant manner.
Also it’s done for PvP fairness reasons, also not something LE showcases.

Same in New World.

But yeah, examples to support systems which are existing for inherently game enhancing reasons is obviously not gonna fly after I mentioned specifically that such systems exist.
LE’s doesn’t fall into that category.

The argument has nothing to do with either your presented solution or the OP. The argument is made only to show that there are people that, given the choice, don’t actually have one.
Which you time and again seem to fail to understand.

At this point, I’m not arguing about your presented system. I’m only arguing about giving a choice to some players and no choice to others. I’m arguing against creating an inequality between players again. That’s all.

What’s disappointing is your interpretation of it. From the start I’ve said that non-traders and traders are treated equally by EHG. There is no “grovel before me”. There is only “please don’t screw me again”.

Maybe this Mike answer on discord will help clear things up?

Switching is designed as a release valve to prevent character bricking. It is not designed as a mechanic to be interacted with.

Also, you are abandoning them, I'm sure they would feel scorned and that would ruin your favor with them.

Specifically “not designed as a mechanic to be interacted with”.

I feel like you’re deliberately misunderstanding this.
I’m not saying mastery respec or faction swap is equivalent. I’m just saying that the argument that you just want a smooth experience and not have to pay to switch a decision also applies to that other different topic. And it also applies to skill respec.

I’m sure that people that have defended skill respec to retain skill levels have also felt that they only want a smooth experience and losing levels is too much to pay.

So I’m not saying that this is the same as mastery respec. Just that that specific argument you presented is just as valid for those other separate issues as well.

See? Now you’re just refusing to see things. And it’s not really hard to understand. So I’ll try one more time.
We implement your system. You can play either MG or CoF. You have that choice every single day because you can switch to suit your playstyle of the day.
So now you, Kulze, have 2 choices where you can use both.
I, DJ, only have one choice, because I won’t use MG.
Some trade afficionado will only have one choice, because they won’t give up MG.

Do you understand now? You will have 2 choices. I will have 1. You’re giving a choice to yourself and everyone that feels like you. You are giving no choice to me and everyone that feels like me.
Is that clear now?

And don’t counter-argue with “you have 2 choices, you just don’t want to use them” because that is the exact same principle of “if you don’t want mastery respec just don’t use it”.

Fair, then showcase how it would happen.

After all the solution is to remove double-dipping first and foremost. Because that creates a inherent inequality and goes actively counter to keeping the systems contained in themselves.
So that’s the first step and needs to be done anyway.

Including tradeable items dropping from CoF and Gold used as a currency in MG.

So that’s a ‘given’ without the faction change already.

Next up, the current system already causes a inherent inequality for switching.
That obviously needs to be solved.

CoF has a inherent downside moving to MG compared to MG moving to CoF.
The baseline to achieve that would be ‘wearing a full outfit of non-tagged items’, right?

MG acquires items through the market, extra to the base drop-rate.
CoF on the other hand upgrades items from the base drop-rate into better versions. Or duplicates dropping items.
That means CoF gets less non-tagged items overall.

Obviously not a situation which is allowed since the mechanical conditions need to be exactly the same, otherwise we can’t even start thinking about adjustments as all is intermingled and hence breaking things left and right and causing issues. Bad design simply.

So that needs to go anyway in some way… and now… ‘ooff’'… since that can’t go.

Doomed if you do, doomed if you don’t already.

Hence solely on that factor alone the faction change mechanic is already unfair. Sucks a lot.

Now we can actually come to the things I suggested, to see if it would be ‘fair’ or not.

First off… allowing both factions to keep wearing their tagged gear afterwards.
Obviously creates sudden immediate problems, loads of them even! What holds you back from switching now? Nothing.
So to do that we need a alternative system which doesn’t affect people differently.
That’s why I chose ‘Favor’ for it. Both factions acquire it at the exact same rate after all. What they do with it is open to the individual.

So now we have a situation which removes the unfair treatment between factions, actually removes the punishment itself… but it still costly if the relevant effort is put into changing a faction.

Because you’re right, as Mike wrote:

You’re ‘bricking’ your character a lot harder when you play a while in a faction then when you’re early on.
By the time you feel like you’re reaching a dead end of some kind (be it MG or CoF, both have them) you’re already so far inside that it does exactly that… actively.

Kinda a big ‘ooff’ again.

Sure!
It’s a nice lore reasoning.
Well… if it would count for the character itself. But Favor is acount shared and not individually achieved. That ruins this whole premise.

Instead of punishing the one ‘scorning’ them (entitled pricks btw… you’re doing work for them and when you want to move on they’re being assholes… just sayin) and suddenly they punish you… your mother, your father and your family to the 8th degree! :joy:
Actually kinda hilarious! But sadly bad design still.

Also fairly interesting:

If you create a mechanic the player isn’t supposed to interact with… then you’ve actively failed as a developer. Not even a question there.

I mean, it’s intended as a fail-safe, right?
Well… in which situation would you actually ‘brick’ your character through the faction? And in which situation would it actually be more detrimental then a following switch?

If you missclick… wouldn’t a… lets say 1 day cooldown timer for a one-time change be sufficient?
What else exists beyond for bricking?

So it’s utterly overengineered and missplaced simply. Still… bad design overall.
Mission successfully failed I would say.

Please finally keep the whole sentence together as a single context.
Cherrypicking is for a reason nonsensical… you can twist and turn everything willy-nilly how you want. You can’t state anything without it being dismantled into nonsense and entirely different to the initial notion.

No, since when you read the whole sentence it’s not anymore.
So… can you finally move past it? That won’t change.

Are you acruing 100k favor every day hence?
If so… how much beyond will you acrue? So will it actually provide you a overall upside or downside as a end-result?

Please stay in the provided framework. If you make your own obviously things don’t work as intended :slight_smile: That’s quite clear.

Are you loosing something by not doing it?
If so what would you loose in comparison (mind the framework), or what would the other side gain? (mind framework again)

Don’t worry, there’s better things as reasoning available :slight_smile:
Albeit I’ll also mention that ‘abstaining from using a mechanic’ is generally psychologically harder then ‘abstaining from not using a mechanic’. The artificial reduction of options has a higher mental difficulty then the increase in options beyond the active scope. But that’s not part of the topic, just a side note.

Agreed.

It doesn’t. The vast majority of drops aren’t CoF tagged. I know because I run a CoF tag filter and in every echo there are a dozen items with that tag vs hundreds of other drops that don’t.
Not only that, but CoF drops more items overall, even if we don’t count prophecies.

Overall, you might say that many of the best drops are CoF tagged. But that only prevents an inequality in the other way. If the best drops weren’t CoF tagged, then CoF would have a much easier time switching.

I’d say that on average the ease of switching tagged gear with non-tagged is kinda the same. Probably still easier for CoF to MG, since you have more drops overall.

By that point you’re already dozens of hours in. That’s not what this system is designed for. This system is designed for when you join MG, play with it for a few hours and decide you don’t want it. At that point you don’t lose much and the change is easier to make.

Your characters are all part of the same family/clan. By leaving, you ruin their favour with your whole family/clan. Premise restored.

Not an uncommon occurrence throughout history. Even in the present day. If you’re part of a church and your son/daughter commits a “big sin” (which usually just means being different from them), they will “ask” you to leave the church. The whole family pays for the sins of one.

In exactly the same way you “brick” your character choosing a mastery (and no, I’m not trying to say both are similar, just that the circumstances are the same). You try one out because it seems like it could be fun. You spend a few hours on it. You really don’t like it and want to try the other one instead. Rather than make a new character, some players just leave at this point.
Which is why they created an emergency fail-safe for it. And presumably why they are created another one (which does seem much more lenient this one) for mastery.

You might agree or not, but it’s coherent.

That’s actually not hard to do. There are plenty of people doing 200-400k per hour.

Apparently not, because you used the exact same argument people have used on the mastery respec thread. Namely “What do you lose if I use mastery respec and you don’t?”.

I would lose the feeling of equality where everyone has 1 choice. The other side would gain a choice and now have 2.