Endurance is not a interesting mechanic. Basically every point of endurance is worth a bit less than 2.5 hp (assume 60%). Basically its just HP but we changed the unit of it. Yes it has synergy with regen and heal but that’s about it.
In contrast ward is a really interesting implementation for a defensive mechanic. Where your EHP is the equilibrium between gain and loss of it. And the loss is relative to the current amount you have giving you a stronger regen the lower ward you are at.
So what to do with endurance. How about a defensive stat for big one-shooting sources which most people don’t likes cause they are not engaging. My suggestion: Mitigate up to x% of the damage based of on the amount of damage it would deal to you as a % of your life total. So if a hit were to deal 100% of your life as damage (kill you) it mitigates 50% of that damage (if x= 50%), if the hit would deal 50% of your life total it deals 25% less damage to you. What endurance would scale is the percentage mitigation. What the actual number is in this example doesn’t matter but please discus the concept or your own opinion about endurance as a mechanic.
Is it just me or are you unkillable as soon as you end up with one hp because LE isn’t into decimal stuff? Well math and me is a story full of misunderstandings but I’m pretty sure you would make everyone invisible with that kind of mechanic… not that I would care for 1-2 hours to have some fun but in the long run? Nah… not so much.
I think we have far to many stats already and I hope some will end up on the chopping block in the future and Endurance is one of those stats because it’s boring and bland and could be a “get x.y more life per endurance times endurance treshhold.” modifier. It’s just eHP stacking .
My suggestion is based of % of life total not % damage of current health. So no if you have 1 hp left and your max hp 100 you would mitigate 0.01 x endurance. And max mitigation would be caped at a appropriate number (which is self evident to me with any damage reducing ability).
But fully agree about endurance just being a boring eHP increase. Or in my opinion just another unit for HP.
Yeah but rather then working on it I would be happy if it’s gone for good and the mobs will get a balancing pass. I don’t think anyone want’s a game that stacks stats that do the same in the end just to increase the time it takes to aquire meaningfull gear.
I know streamlining is an unwanted thing but endurance to me is just a silly mechanic.
For this conversation, I think it might be helpful to provide some information on the intended design of Endurance. Endurance does apply to “oneshot” damage - any damage dealt to health below endurance threshold does get reduced by endurance amount - even if the instance of the hit happened while above endurance threshold. eg. IF you have 800/1000 health, threshold at 400 health take a hit for 500, 100 damage of that hit would be mitigated by endurance. This doesn’t prevent “oneshots” if the damage is high enough, which is intentional - it’s not meant to be a health gate.
Endurance is designed as a defensive mechanism which allows builds to have more time “on the edge” of death, where the most excitement is, fighting to hold on. To achieve this, the lower part of your life total gets this additional damage mitigation, allowing players to see and experience that low-life, holding on to the last string, but actually have more of a hold than it feels like in the heat of the moment. There’s also several mechanics that can make use of this by intentionally placing themselves within this threshold, such as liches, and Primalists. Endurance wasn’t meant to be viewed as “total average EPH calculated on a planner”, but rather its design is in the moment to moment combat feel.
I don’t say this to steer conversation, just to add context to the current design.
First of al its very uplifting/motivating knowing someone from EHG actually might read discussions someone makes.
I am aware of what is mentioned here but it doesn’t change the fact that endurance at max (60%) is still just EHP at 2.5 the rate of HP. Hence just another unit. It does have the upside consequentially that it makes regen and hp 2.5 times as effective as well. If anyone can explain to me how endurance is any different mechanic wise beyond what I stated above please do :). It just becomes the illusion of depth when we are just saying “hey this bucket gives you 1 gallon of water. This other other bucket gives you 3.78 litters”.
I would like to give you a reason why the mechanic I suggested is meaningful. I haven’t played a dodge character on LE but one common problem is that the damage it takes for them to get one shoot is lower than for an armor character assuming everything equal.
Take a 1000 hp character and an enemy that deals 1000 damage a hit.
A dodge base character would randomly die or survive with full health. Which nobody likes because you are playing in to the characters defensive mechanic which is just rolling a dice to survive or die (out of the players control). A armor character would consistently survive.
Analogously I think that most people would agree on that you would rather chose -10% damage taken over 10% chance to take no damage.
My suggested mechanic would pair very well with dodge based characters because its mitigation is stronger the more damage you take as a single chunk of your total hp.
Please let me know if someone does not understand the math of the mechanic I suggested.
I don’t think it matters, its a simple mechanic, that makes combat feel better than if it wasnt there. When you can have something simple, that makes stuff feel better, then you made a real good thing.
I think we will have to agree to disagree here. For me Ward and dodge are mechanics with uniqueness to them. Endurance is just another name for 2.5 HP.
I must admit I just complimented the fact that someone from EHG read the post and took the time to answer but then I proceeded not to read properly what was written in the post [insert facepalm].
I understand the design was made with game feel in mind as well. I agree that it brings more “extreme” moments and with that the excitement that comes with it. For that purpose, its good. But I would rather see this mechanic having some more depth to it.
LE totally dominates decimal stuff. Not sure where you got the idea that it doesn’t do decimals when the devs have been saying dor years that it does.
The more popular a game gets, the more things get reduced to an eHP calculation. Its is inevitable in games where a sizeable portion of the community are highly maths literate nerds.
Just dropping by with context of a design perspective of the intents of endurance, not trying to comment on the ideas presented, or trying to steer the conversation or defend current endurance mechanics (we’ve had our own internal conversations about it as well). Converse away! Basically think of me here as nothing more than a bot responding with “Hey, you mentioned Endurance, here’s the ideas behind it!” haha.
Certainly, I could have worded this differently. I didn’t mean it as “hey, don’t do that, stop looking at it that way!”, but rather “when designed, the core of the design idea was a combat feeling to be achieved”. There was a desire for the feeling, and the current mechanics were created to support that rather than the other way around. That’s also why I was dropping in with the context, so that when discussed about potential variations or changes, that’s the feeling being achieved and what’s really “intended” with endurance regardless of how the mechanics support it.
You don’t write much so its hard to reply without making assumptions. I will assume your point is that if I want to see something as eHP I always can. Hence all mechanics can be uninteresting. So, first of all that is not true.
Block and dodge are mitigations that either happen or not. With 50% dodge chance and 100 hp, do you have 200 eHP or 100 eHP vs a 100 damage source? This gets more complicated the more hits happen because… probabilities…
Ward is an equilibrium point of gain vs loss. Because the gain is so irregular and dependant if you are attacking or moving you simply can’t say your eHP is … Even potions work differently on ward because you can go above the cap you can normally sustain. There certainly is a calculation that can be made with assumptions. But what does that eHP tell you?
Flat mitigations have a place in an ARPG in my opinion, in Last Epoch we have resistances and armor against hits. But adding a new one called “cuirass” where the tooltip says each point of cuirass reduces damage taken by 2% and have it as an added alternative to armor is not very interesting is it?
The mechanic I suggested with mitigation based on hit is interesting to me cause you can’t say what eHP it provides unless you also provide the damage of the hit. Since this is never constant I would just have to go with an over all feeling because I cant give a “mathematically” correct best defence option based of eHP.
In short I reject the idea of saying that everything can be calculated down to eHP and even if it could what makes the game fun to me is that sweet spot when I can grasp a mechanic but I can’t just math-out a correct answer. Its okay to have a dodge mechanic but we don’t need something called evasion that does the same thing but with different measurement unit
That’s pretty close to it. Dodge and Block still calculate as eHP because it is rarely calculated as if taking one massive hit. It is calculated over multiple enemy attacks. Otherwise dodge could equally be calculated as infinite eHP if it were done on a single enemy attack.
I like having multiple layers of defense as options as it forces people to choose the mix they like. Combining Dodge, Endurance, and Regen for instance gives you the benefits of luck with dodges while also giving you the protection from one shots and DoTs with endurance/regen.
The REAL discussion when it comes to valuing defensive layers is how applicable each is. Endurance mitigates every kind of damage, but only kicks in when you are lower on life (typically). Dodge allows damage spikes. Armor (and dodge) doesn’t work against DoTs. Resists obviously are damage type specific. There also comes the conversation of how easy it is to scale each type of defense. Armor seems to be pretty easy to scale so it gets used more than it should (it isn’t particularly good as a defensive layer).
It’s not particularly complicated, you just apply the chance to dodge to the damage mitigated and add that to your raw hp.
I’d say its kinda build dependent, if you have lots of ward retention you’ll likely have ward when you need it assuming you’re getting it on hit/leech. But “all it tells you” is that is a more variable defensive mechanic that can have jigher highs but may not entirely be there when you need it if you have to sped too much time not gaining ward due to boss mechanics.
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