I’d prefer death to lead to a decrease chance in encountering a quest echo for 4 echoes. Example: echo 20 with 40% chance to get a quest echo. You die and it’s down to 20% for the next echo and onwards (with the usual increase in chances for each echo completed. This disappears after the 4 echoes. Less penalizing but you’ll still feel it. And not punishing if you’re not at the minimum level for an echo.
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But how many times did you die and have your timelines set back before you perfected the fight enough to do it naked. That’s extreme, and definitely 1%. Average players don’t do that. Above average players don’t do that.
This actually is a good idea.
I do not argue, that you will need some “tries” and a bit of experience with the fight for that.
But it is not that hard. Definitely not top 1%, not at all.
All quest echoes need some certain threshold to have a chance to appear. If you get set back you possibly get reset to a point where it does not have a chance to reappear.
BUT you can actually do mroe normal echoes, way beyond the “minimum echo” the boss can spawn (you see the threshold and the % chance at the top).
If a Boss for example spawns at quest echo 12, you could also play until quest echo 16, if you die and get set back to 12, you instantly have a chance to encoutner the boss again.
I do not see any value in your suggestion.
The value is that you don’t get set back. If you die at echo 20 then you stay at echo 20. The difference is if echo 20 has a 40% chance to get a quest echo, it gets halved for the next 4 echoes attempts. Once you do 4 echoes then the penalty goes away. If you die at 0% chance (didn’t meet minimum) then nothing happens.
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I did not use “undergeared” as an excuse. It was a response to a an uncalled-for hypothetical about “zerging.” Also, please note that my incompetence as player has no relevance to the validity or invalidity of a game mechanic. The death penalty issue, has nothing to do with what my resistances were at a particular point of the game.
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For me , wasting time and having to redo the fight is penalty enough. I vastly prefer PoE design of 6 portals and xp penalty for dying , than the 1 chance mechanic of LE endgame
Mainly, because in PoE I can chose my content and I’m mostly not forced to repeat it if I want to advance. In LE I have to kill the boss if I want to progress to a higher loot ilvl area, and that boss roadblock can be pretty frustrating, specially if after dying you have to redo content to get another chance.
LE endgame is too streamlined and lacks choices, it reminds me too much of PoE lab , and that has always been polarizing content for the community, and they have nerfed it to the ground so people stop complaining. I can only assume those complains are why they have already told several times that in PoE 2 lab will not exist).
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Except it’s not much different in PoE. If you’re “undergeared or underleveled” enough that you can’t do the map boss then you just waste 6 portals (and loose most of your xp for that level) then you need to run a few maps of the next tier down to get another one to drop. Kinda like getting thrown back a few monoliths. And I’m sure you’re a “proper” PoE player not one of those pfft players who play trade league.
But how is that not a request to be able to zerg the boss down? If the boss kills you, you want to be able to go again and again and again and again until you’ve worn it down with your frequent attempts. Is that not a reasonable definition of zerging?
I’ve asked you for your preferred death penalty and your reply was that you just wanted to go against the boss immediately afterwards. Ie, not having a death penalty.
Looks like an excuse to me. Almost like you’re saying that player skill or knowledge of the mechanics of the boss fight has anything to do with whether you kill it or not. My reply was to deny that your assertion was correct and give you an extreme example to the counter.
But in PoE you basically don’t know WHAT killed you, if you died in like… let’s say 80% of the cases?
In LE it is VERY often the case, that you actually instantly reaslize WHAT killed you, to learn from it.
In PoE you barely have any learning from enemy mechanics, since they are SOOOOO badly telegraphed/shown
While some of this statement is partly true. (You have a “fixed” pool of bosses you need to kill one after the other, with some minor choices were to go next if you beat some)
I would compare MoF more with a mix of D3 Rifts and PoE Maps(very basically)
You are correct that MOF currently is fairly streamlined, but this is just ONE endgame mode currently, there are several other endgame modes planned. Which will most likely lead to some form of choice here.
I already told this way too many times. Remember PoE is already a very old and established game, which didn’t had that much content(especially the “choice” you are refering too) when it first started out.
Yes, but LE’s “you were killed by” screen isn’t necessarily honest. If you died from a poison ticking on you for ~10 damage per tick & that removed your last hp, the screen would say that you died from poison, not the 1k physical hit you took milliseconds before…
This is where comparing LE to other games in terms of quantity of content is not particularly useful. LE only has a handful of monolith bosses to kill while PoE has dozens because PoE has been building that up (& changing it) for years. LE didn’t even exist when PoE introduced maps.
LE’s endgame is only “streamlined” because they’ve not had time to add much of it, as Heavy says below.
I was more talking about the “clearness” of everything happening on the screen, not the actual death recap.
I never felt “oh wait what did just kill me” in LE, while i had that feeling ALOT in PoE, like a really lot lol.
There is like bazillions way to fix this, like boss can regenerate health, enrage timers etc. But even if not, where exactly is the problem?
Time lost and ineffectivity is already a penalty, maybe it does not seem like “big enough penalty”, because you feel that unsuccessful player should be punished by frustration, but it does not change fact, you don’t need to remove xp from player to punish him. From nature of APRGs, which are all about efficiency, simple wiping again and again is already setting you back by a lot.
I agree xp penalty should not be a thing, first, it actually is not fixing any of you mentioned issues, it’s encouraging to cheat the system - like avoiding dangerous fight until you are at start of the level - I did it several times in other games, but skipping the content and just mindlessly farm is not really fun - but nor is wiping hours of progress from your character.
Other thing this system is doing is leaving player frustrated and encourage zerging (imho) even more after few unsuccessful attempts - at least in my case. When I try to beat boss but die like twice or three times in the process, lose like half of my xp, I am just frustrated to the point, where I stop caring about xp altogheter, just zerg the boss, wipe rest of my level xp instead trying to change strategy because why would you? You already lost too much from this fight alone, just get over it - frustration will just push you into this mindset. After that point, i just exit the game and wont touch it for days.
Losing xp on death is one of these outdated concept, which should not exists in modern ARPGs, we are past that point, but for some reason, developers are clinging on this concept…because they can’t think anything better? I am not sure. However death and punishment can be good concept when used right. Hardcore characters are proof of that, but there are ways for softcore characters too. PoE has Labyrinth, where you actually care about not dying and not because of xp, in TL3 you have lifebound items, which are stronger than your regular but you will lose them upon death, you can create rogue-lite end-game systems, where you have just limited attempts before you will ultimately fail that task. There is so many ways, how to design meaningful death punishment without pushing player into borderline frustration.
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I’m a filthy SC trade player 
, I’m too wimpy for HC , and although I have enjoyed SSF I mostly end going trade because of my unpatience. And about the boss , if I’m undergeared or not geared for bossing I can simply skip it , nothing forces me to do the boss to keep advancing. I can skip all bosses if I want , and although that hampers my advancement it does not impede it like it does in LE, nor am I obligated to keep redoing the fight until I can forget about it.
Give us choices so we are encouraged to kill the boss , but give us ways around them so we are not forced to do them if we don’t want. That’s the difference between good and great game design. Make me want to do it , don’t make me have to do it.
PoE screen is so full of stuff most times that you are right , they are not the best about showing, but they have some other clues, for example Sirus (a poorly designed fight in my opinion) has good voice clues you can use to guide where and when to move.
But that’s not my point , my point is that if I don’t like Sirus , Elder , Shaper , etc , the game guides me to them , but does not force me to do them. I can simply skip them, in LE I’m forced to kill Lagon in the monolith if I want to progress to higher echoes, I have no choice of skipping him.
I agree completely, and having great expectations about how good a game LE can become is why I’m giving my feedback.
I know its not fair to compare a new game in development with something thats stablished for years , but that’s the way competition works, LE will compete with PoE , D3 , GD , TL3 , etc for the time and money of players, so it has to do so if it wants to be successful .
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