Okay even though I don’t think you guys were understanding what I was saying I was wrong assuming that the base multipliers changed the breakpoint and I estimated it to be slightly lower than it actually is (I thought around 5-600%) but I didn’t actually do that math I just inferred… Sorry i was really tired and going over a bunch of things I shoulda got some sleep (did now). Thanks bro. Do we not have an option to mark a comment as the solution? I would take your last comment as solution.
1 Like
Entirely possible, and I would have done that earlier had I not been busy at work…
Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. 
Unfortunately, that functionality is only available for posts in the bug/tech support areas of the forum.
1 Like
hey I thought of something, we missed crit multiplier. If I understand correctly cold pen gets calculated after crit multiplier which would make the breakpoint lower for crit builds. I checked for 580% with a 2.5 crit multiplier and 9% pen was already more dmg than 70% spell dmg
Well, that would be a separate conversation, since we didn’t look at crit & crit multi… Since crits are a separate layer of damage multiplier, they function like a 100% “more” modifier that you get if you get a crit, therefore it would only change the numbers rather than the result.
so a 250% crit just adds 250% spell dmg… that doesn’t make sense… it should multiply the result of the base and the dmg modifiers… which would change the result
No, it increases your crit multi from x2 to x2.25.
So if you had a hit for 1,000 & you crit, normally you’d do 2,000. But with 225% crit multi you’d do 2,250. If that 1,000 was with no other modifiers, then adding 25% inc damage would increase it to 1,250. Critting (with only a 200% crit multi) would then increase that to 2,500.
yea that’s what i mean,
base dmg 1000
spell dmg 650% 1000 x 7.5 = 7500 * 2.5 18750
spell dmg 720 % (70sp) 1000 x 8.2 = 8200 * 2.5 = 20500
spell dmg 650% (9 pen) 1000 x 7.5 = 7500 * 2.5 * 1.09 = 22437.5
(250% crit muttiplier)
more dmg from the pen under the breakpoint no?
No, because the 70% spell damage is a 10.7% increase over the 650%, with that much “base” spell damage the 70% spell damage affix would be more effective.
1000 * 7.5 * 2.5 = 18,750
1000 * 8.2 * 2.5 = 20,500
1000 * 7.5 * 1.09 * 2.5 = 20,437.5
You took the 20,500 (720% spell damage figure) & then added the 9% pen.
Adding an extra layer (the crit multi) into the calculation doesn’t change which gives more, it just makes both numbers bigger.
so you’re saying the dmg reduction and resistance calculations happen in the same formula as the dmg calculations? that’s strange… do you have the actual formulas the game uses?
No, I never mentioned those at all, I was just saying that your penetration calc was wrong because you multiplied 20,500 (the result of using 720%) by 1.09 instead of 18,750 (the result of using 650%).
My final paragraph was just meant to say that adding an additional term to the formula just makes the numbers bigger, it doesn’t change which is better (70% spell damage or 9% pen) given your starting parameter (the only one that matters is the 650% starting damage modifier).
no the result of adding 70% spellpower is the * 8.2 calculation. 7.5 is correct for 650% to add the base back in. 1000 with 650% added is 1000 + (1000 x 6.5) or just 1000 * 7.5… atleast I think.
720% spellpower is * 8.2 that’s the added 70% spell dmg.
(it’s added dmg otherwise having 0 spell dmg multiplier would result in zero dmg)
You’ve made a mistake on the bottom line. 1,000 x 7.5 x 2.5 x 1.09 = 20,437.5, not 22,437.5. 22,437.5 = 1,000 x 8.2 x 2.5 x 1.09.
Added damage is an entirely different thing which relates to the base damage (the 1,000) which we have this far rightly ignored as it has no effect on the question of “which is more effective, increased damage or penetration”.
If you have 0% increased spell damage, that just means you multiply the base damage by 1. Otherwise why do you think we’ve been multiplying by 8.2 for the 720% multiplier this is just basic arithmetic? Granted the crit multi doesn’t work like that, but that’s the only instance.
Let me sum up everything to one single statement:
WE NEED PROPER DPS TOOLTIP!!! 
1 Like
Diablo 3 for instance has a sheet dmg calculated but it’s extremely misleading. Things like area damage don’t even get counted because how could they, they depend on the amount of mobs you hit, etc. For last epoch, different skills have diff mods and scale differently with added dmg, so a dps tooltip would be inaccurate. The best thing to do is understand the game mechanics and your build and gear.
That’s not true. Added damage is just base damage, so that should be calculated accurately. Things like AoE can’t be calculated because the skill dps can’t know how many mobs there are that would be hit (which is why D3’s dps doesn’t include area damage). But single target damage should be easily calculated, hopefully it’ll be dynamic so as your buffs start or wear off the damage figures change.
but some skills are just base dmg * intel * 1.04 * dmg mods but glacier for instance the large hit is base dmg * intel * 1.04 * (dmg mods *3.5). Then in the skill tree most ppl take reduced crit multiplier (to get to the mana refunding nodes and get the base crit %) which would make it even more inaccurate. I guess you could argue that’s aoe but even on one mob it would be inaccurate. Then you also have skill modifiers in the single target spell trees that would affect damage. They could make a base autoattack dmg sheet like diablo does but it’s almost useless and people that go by it usually make wrong gear decisions.
Why would it be inaccurate? Every skill has an added damage effectiveness that is used to multiply any flat added damage from gear/passives/skill tree (if it’s not mentioned then the default is 100%). That doesn’t need to be displayed, the user would be just as informed if the skill dps screen gave the total base damage rather than split it out into its components.
To be fair, multi-stage skills like glacier would be harder to display “nicely”, unless they gave the damage and crit chance & crit damage for each stage.
IMO the PoE skill dps screen in the character screen is a good starting point for how to display the skill info (in terms of the UI). I like how it shows the calculated damage, crit chance, attack/cast speed, ailment proc chance & damage, etc. But I’d tweak it a bit for LE by adding in skill specific bits such as the data for the separate stages of glacier, the number of chains and damage per chain for lightning blast, ricochets for shield throw, etc.
It would only be inaccurate if they missed modifiers out ignoring the whole aoe thing I mentioned earlier.
Maybe it would be easier to have “handcrafted” skill dps tabs that are specific to each skill rather than trying to come up with a one-size-fits-all screen. That way you would only need to include info pertinent to the skill.
1 Like
yea true if it wasn’t just a base dmg display that would be nice. I never got around to POE but I probably will.
Download it play n hour just to check the tooltip.
Its free and the tooltips are really the best on the market.
And thats mouseover and char screen. The later has mutiple tabs of info for every skill u use … like 100 lines of info per skill.
It is not perfect but the best on market by far.
This topic was automatically closed 60 days after the last reply. New replies are no longer allowed.