EHG should have let LE die

[Llama8]

@Kulze

Isn’t it a relevant aspect which changes the premise entirely with the existence or the lack of it?

Not really, as DJ said, you’re taking the conditions that apply to a small section of a population (Roman house slaves, 10%-20%) & saying that because they were better than the remaining 80%-90% that slavery in general wasn’t as bad as people make out. At this point I think you’re just trolling us because there’s no way you can think that that’s a viable argument.

@Kulze

Here, easy once more:
No people gone = likely company bye bye = all people gone.
Half people gone = company able to survive in less resources = half people still there.

This is the revisionist bit. You never said that. You said that they should all be made redundant.

@Kulze

Your virtue signaling is disgusting plainly spoken.

Who exactly am I supposed to be virtue signalling to? And why is saying that slavery is bad “virtue signalling”? Do you think slavery is actually not too bad?

@Kulze

@Llama8

because Romans had house slaves, slavery wasn’t all that bad compared to being an arpg developer in the west.

No, that’s not the comparison?

It is, try reading post #3, that’s your one where you say that Roman slaves had a better lifestyle conpared to modern wage slaves by absolute magnitudes so I shouldn’t be making that argument.

• This is a ridiculous thing to say, since arpg developers tend not to be “wage slaves”
• I imagine that healthcare, even in the US is better than that available to Roman slaves (even house slaves)
• The quality if housing is probably better for an arpg developer compared to a Roman house slave ~2,000 odd years ago
• The ability to resign & get a different/better job is substantially better for an arpg developer than a Roman house slave, let alone a Roman non-house slave or any other type of slave in history

Just because the Romans treated a small % of their slaves better than the majority of their slaves, which I think you accept, doesn’t mean that slaves in general (what I was originally commenting about) had similar treatment/conditions.

Seriously mate, has your account been hacked or you’re arguing for a bet or something?

@Kulze

The initial statement was ‘they had better livestyles then modern wage slaves’, which if you take a portion of them (yes, that’s cherry-picking, but I never expected that the inability to see that some absolutely did would cause such a monumental argument) was better off.

But you’re cherry picking the “best” end of slaves to begin with…

@Kulze

A roman slave on the upper rungs didn’t even have that. They were actually revered for their knowledge and skills and treated accordingly despite being slaves.

Ok, and what about the vast majority of Roman slaves? Or non-Roman slaves? Because, at the risk of repeating myself, I wasn’t talking about a small niche of slaves, I was talking about slavery in general. Slaves in general wouldn’t have been revered.

@Kulze

So… the highest ‘wage slave’ has hence practically a worse position then the highest actual slave in roman times.

And using this to back up a rebuttal to “slavery is worse than being an arpg developer” is picking a few cells from a cherry. Bike-cherry-shedding- picking? Is that a thing?

@Kulze

Oh come on… in a historical timeframe you only can take snippets and take examples from that, otherwise it leads automatically ad absurdum.

So you don’t think that the statement “slavery in history is worse than being an arpg developer” is reasonable because a tiny percentage of slaves weren’t treated badly? But that’s not cherry picking?

@Kulze

No, I didn’t try to supply it to every member.

You did, for the rrasons stated above.

@DJSamhein

The whole discussion was “being an ARPG developer is the worse in human history past present and future”. Which isn’t even true if you compare to the current working force.
It was then said that slaves were worst off. And then you went on a completely side road that didn’t actually bear much consequence into the discussion.

Exactly.

@DJSamhein

Kulze: "Actually, if we pick the people that had prostate cancer and were middle class and had easy access to health, 99% survived, whereas if we pick the people that are over 90 and have health issues, 20% died of a cold. So having a cold is definitely worse than having cancer.

Statistics don’t lie, but liars use statistics.

[HorusKBZ]

@Kulze

A person in prison, getting 3 meals a day, hot water, a bed a roof and even social ammendities like owning a personal TV are common, getting provided with a job (they might lack before actually) and fully remunerated for the worktime while also getting financial help, clothing and travel expenses after their time is over.

Or…

A person who isn’t able to find a job. Cannot pay for their rent and is getting mandated to go to interviews at their personal expense before being refunded for it, for companies which aren’t actually as catered as it’s for prison inmates and actively risking to be out of a home, out of a TV, out of food.

At least in Germany, if you don’t get a job and play along some basic rules, you don’t end up homeless and starving.
From my own experience, I know it’s possible to get money from the job center in advance if you are struggling financially to cover the travel expense in advance. This requires you to communicate with the job center, though. When my mental health was down so far I couldn’t make calls like this, I asked the court (via a social worker in the mental health clinic) to get a legal representative tasked with helping me with stuff like that.
While there is still a lot of room for improvement, the German system isn’t pure horror, there are a quite some options. The bureaucracy can be a shitty maze to walk, though.

[Kulze]

@Llama8

This is the revisionist bit. You never said that. You said that they should all be made redundant.

You took it up as that, I never said it. I repeated the same friggin thing now for… I think 4 times total in the Forum? Not my problem anymore.

@Llama8

Who exactly am I supposed to be virtue signalling to? And why is saying that slavery is bad “virtue signalling”? Do you think slavery is actually not too bad?

It’s the premise of a concept not being allowed to be spoken about, even when it’s uncomfortable, solely on the basis that it’s set in comparison to something else irrespectible of outcome.
Which you did.

And the follow-up beyond the first sentence is once again just absolutely nonsensical, you’re inferring things which weren’t said to put yourself into a morally superior position. Hence… virtue signaling.
Which is publicly expressed sentiments intended to demonstrate ones good character/social conscience/moral superiority of a position.

You try to undermine my comparison (which isn’t emotional, can be faulty in several areas or have important aspects not included which are relevant after all) not on a logical premise but by putting yourself in a emotionally superior position.

What the hell else is it?

@Llama8

This is a ridiculous thing to say, since arpg developers tend not to be “wage slaves”

Depends on where they’re positioned and their respective living situation.
The US has actual troubles in that regard with ‘trailer coders’ existing by now.
Don’t throw it away willy-nilly by stating plainly ‘it cannot be’… cause - sadly again - it can nowadays.

@Llama8

I imagine that healthcare, even in the US is better than that available to Roman slaves (even house slaves)

Actually no. Roman Healthcare in comparison was one of the most advanced ones for the time. It’s like comparing the current Sweden healthcare system.
They had the concept of sanitation, used greek medical knowledge and it was literally a core pillar for their success.

The american healthcare system comparably counts as one of the worse ones in ‘developed modern nations’.
The primary reason as to why they rank high is because of their innovations, not because of their ‘customer’ results.

So when put into comparison then a household slave with decent standing had far better access to medical services then a low-rung worker of any kind has today there for example.

@Llama8

The quality if housing is probably better for an arpg developer compared to a Roman house slave ~2,000 odd years ago

Trailer coder… enough said. They exist and become ever more common.

And you compare technology of 2000 years with modern technology again. Common living condition of the respective group compared to common living condition of the modern group… and standing to the relative overall state in society at each time. That’s how you compare.
Which yes, would also be better living hence actually… but that’s skewed since you were in the possession of someone wealthy at that time and hence had a extremely higher likelyhood to life in a good place.
So since it’s skewed by design it’s not a good comparison anyway.

@Llama8

The ability to resign & get a different/better job is substantially better for an arpg developer than a Roman house slave, let alone a Roman non-house slave or any other type of slave in history

Household slaves had a common ‘resign’ (manumission) age of around 30 years. A timeframe in which several IT-workers nowadays only set foot into the working field (besides private projects).
By then you counted as a citizen but with limited rights, the major downside was expected deferrence to higher standing people even afterwards or getting severe penalties. Besides that they often faced social stigma (classism… racism… you name it you see it, universal concept sadly) and no high public positions - and hence voting power - being allowed to be taken.
This was excluded for people going into it willingly as much as I know, hence when they got through manumission their citizenship was fully reinstated and they weren’t put together with the ‘liberty’ (manumissioned slaves) at the same level.

So in total you’re right.
With the removal of the classism aspect it’s open for discussion which effectively is better, because someone nowadays stopping the education track has very often troubles to ever get back into it again unless they have respective funds available for a long timeframe. Even in socially well developed countries like middle-europe has em.

But yeah, it’s generally worse with that point, you’re right.

@Llama8

doesn’t mean that slaves in general

Never wanted to say that, and I think by now I stated that several times

@Llama8

But you’re cherry picking the “best” end of slaves to begin with…

Yeah, as explained, because a universal example doesn’t make sense in this area.

@Llama8

Ok, and what about the vast majority of Roman slaves? Or non-Roman slaves?

I think I’ve made it excessively clear exactly what area I’m arguing about in the several posts prior, as well as to the reasoning for it. In quite some detail.

@Llama8

So you don’t think that the statement “slavery in history is worse than being an arpg developer” is reasonable because a tiny percentage of slaves weren’t treated badly?

Didn’t say that. I even stated:

@Kulze

Obviously if you take it 1 to 1 then it wouldn’t even remotely work, not even as a far out-of-scale comparison (which it is).

to try and make the position more clear.

@HorusKBZ

At least in Germany, if you don’t get a job and play along some basic rules, you don’t end up homeless and starving.

Yeah, commonly so, if all goes well.
Having lived a year in Germany actually and knowing the beaurocraty there… it can get very very problematic. I’ve experienced issues myself and I know several people experiencing them, one even currently.

Housing finance being paid wrongly and then not fixed for 1 1/2 years causing severe debt which is then not taken over, only allowing housing to be sustained because of funds from family for the time until resolution.
Lack of information to provide all necessary documents, hence having applications denied outside of the knowledge of the one making the ask, leading to missed appointments because of a lack of funds for transportation.

And much much more. Systems are riddled with issues, but systems to uphold the basic human decency of people aren’t allowed to be. But they are.

But yes, the german system is surprisingly solid despite the shortcomings, I have to agree. Still the situations exist, and they’re not only individual ones, they are regularly happening beyond simple ‘flukes’ to warrant worry.

And yeah… the maze is a mess, especially for those which aren’t able to traverse it easily but do not have mental capacity or experience in traversing those.

[DJSamhein]

@Kulze

Household slaves had a common ‘resign’ (manumission) age of around 30 years.

You realize that the average life expectancy at the time was under 30 years?

That’s the equivalent of having a life expectancy of 75 years and saying “Yeah, you can retire once you reach 80. It’s great!”.

@Kulze

Yeah, as explained, because a universal example doesn’t make sense in this area.

If you don’t want to apply a universal example, then you don’t pick the top percent of one group and the low percent of another group to compare. You compare the average of each group.

[Kulze]

@DJSamhein

You realize that the average life expectancy at the time was under 30 years?

Taking into consideration child mortality rates. Yes.
Without famine (rural only) the common life expectancy was around 60 still.

It’s a common misunderstanding that ‘low life expectancy’ historically means no old people existed. Specifically in well-handled cities with medical and sanitary conditions like the romans had for theirs the expectancy was quite high.

@DJSamhein

If you don’t want to apply a universal example, then you don’t pick the top percent of one group and the low percent of another group to compare. You compare the average of each group.

Also a fair way to do it. But I didn’t pick lowest/highest. That’s why the people which - for whatever reason - are at actual risk of death out of the line in modern times… and the far more existing ones back then as well.

[HorusKBZ]

@Kulze

And yeah… the maze is a mess, especially for those which aren’t able to traverse it easily but do not have mental capacity or experience in traversing those.

For those, there is the option of getting a legal guardian (rechtlicher Betreuer). I had one for about three years when I was at my lowest. Without one, I would have probably crashed completely, either homeless or dead.

If someone hasn’t the mental capacity to ask for help themselves, other people can also ask the court to assign a legal guardian. A judge will look at the case and decide if the person in questions requires this help.

The biggest issue is that many people don’t know how to get help.

What a person has to bring is a general willingness to accept help, as it’s usually very difficult to help someone against their will.

The real bad shit happens not with the German system itself - it happens with criminal employers who severly violate their employees’ rights or within undocumented work, which also falls under the criminal segment. They call it human trafficing and exploitation these days, not slavery.

Lawful jobs in Germany adhere to a maximum of 48 hours per week (also EU law), with usually no more than 8 hours per day. Each day includes legally mandatory rests, with at least 11 hours of rest between two shifts. Four weeks of paid vacation. Paid sick leave for six weeks with the same diagnosis (after which you still get money from the health insurance for up to 18 months). Paid parental leave. Minimum wage these days.

Hard to call it worse than historical slavery, especially if the accounts about Roman slavery were written by Roman slavers. One could think they were a bit biased.

[Llama8]

@Kulze

@Llama8

This is the revisionist bit. You never said that. You said that they should all be made redundant.

You took it up as that, I never said it.

Well, you say that, but yeah, you did:

@Kulze

Yep, and they should plainly spoken just fail rather then some whales fully paying for them over and over again.

@Kulze

ANd plainly spoken? If EHG decides to go back on their promise I absolute hope it fails. Why? So others don’t copy this shit-show and instead are respectively turned away from trying the same anti-customer shit.

@Kulze

@Houlala

Obviously, that is the question. And that is where we have different perceptions.
You think no. I think yes.

If it’s ‘no’ it’s incompetence.

If it’s ‘yes’ then it’s deceiving the community for years, hence utterly disgusting and they deservere to shut down for that alone without reprise.

You also said (in addition to the above) that it’s better to fire half the employees than all of them.

But you absolutely have said that they should all be fired.

@Kulze

It’s the premise of a concept not being allowed to be spoken about, even when it’s uncomfortable, solely on the basis that it’s set in comparison to something else irrespectible of outcome.

That’s not virtue signalling. Please google it.

@Kulze

What the hell else is it?

Not virtue signalling, that’s for sure. But

@Kulze

Depends on where they’re positioned and their respective living situation.
The US has actual troubles in that regard with ‘trailer coders’ existing by now.
Don’t throw it away willy-nilly by stating plainly ‘it cannot be’… cause - sadly again - it can nowadays.

Ok, could it theoretically be an issue? Yes. Do I think EHG are paying their employees at wahe slave levels? No. But I do know you (& I tbf, though I can at least accept that they don’t necessarily occur) enjoy arguing theoreticals.

@Kulze

Roman Healthcare in comparison was one of the most advanced ones for the time.

Good for them, but we’re not talking relative or for their time which I would have thought would have been obvious when comparing slavery to arpg development conditions.

@Kulze

It’s like comparing the current Sweden healthcare system.

You do know that the Swedish healthcare system is better than the Roman healthcare system?

@Kulze

So when put into comparison then a household slave with decent standing had far better access to medical services then a low-rung worker of any kind has today there for example.

Awesome, good for you. So which would you rather be, a Roman slave or an arpg developer? Here’s a quote for you which might help you make your mind up - * Unlike Roman Citizens, by law they could be subjected to corporal punishment, sexual exploitation, torture, and summary execution*. I don’t know about you, but I’m not too fond of the idea of being considered property by law & my owner being legally allowed to execute me because they’re having a shitty day.

@Kulze

Common living condition of the respective group compared to common living condition of the modern group…

Yeah, I did, but then you came along & said that slavery wasn’t all that bad (this is a paraphrasing of your comment, fyi) because one small segment wasn’t treated as badly as the vast majority. What’s the term for that? Cherry picking?

@Kulze

Household slaves had a common ‘resign’ (manumission) age of around 30 years.

Prove it. Otherwise you’re just talking shit. Having googled it, there are lots of fluffy terms, “could hope to obtain freedom”, “The possibility of manumission”, “Slaves could buy their freedom, be freed in their master’s will, or be granted it for loyal service, often around age 30”, they all indicate that it wasn’t guaranteed.

@Kulze

By then you counted as a citizen but with limited rights,

Depends whether you were granted partial or full citizenship.

@Kulze

the major downside was expected deferrence to higher standing people even afterwards

That would have been the case for citizens as well, or do you think that the higher stratas of Roman society would have put up with shit from those beneath them?

@Kulze

and no high public positions

Yeah, again, no:

Tiro: Cicero’s secretary, who was highly educated and managed his master’s affairs.
Narcissus and Pallas: Served as powerful secretaries to Emperor Claudius, holding immense political power.
The Vettii Brothers: Owners of one of the most magnificent houses in Pompeii.
Trimalchio: A fictional, exaggerated, but illustrative character in Petronius’ Satyricon, embodying the stereotype of the absurdly wealthy, unrefined, ex-slave.
Eurysaces the Baker: A wealthy former slave who built a massive, unique tomb for himself and his wife in Rome.

@Kulze

and hence voting power

But the majority of Roman citizens didn’t have voting power, so what’s your point? That citizens were the same as (freed)slaves so slaves had awesome conditions?

@Kulze

Didn’t say that

You did, it’s post 3.

@Kulze

But I didn’t pick lowest/highest.

You really did, Roman house slaves (highest part of their group) versus wage slaves (lowest part of their group).

@HorusKBZ

Hard to call it worse than historical slavery, especially if the accounts about Roman slavery were written by Roman slavers. One could think they were a bit biased.

Don’t forget that Roman slave owners were allowed to execute their property. That’s frowned upon nowadays.

[HorusKBZ]

@Llama8

my owner being legally allowed to execute me because they’re having a shitty day.

Or that they thought your standing wasn’t worth keeping you around when you slipped and broke the hip that made you useful.

Anyway, the ‘slaves’ I met were those who enslaved themselves by becoming self-employed. Because then, nobody cares that you barely scrape by, work sixteen hours a day, never go on holiday, can’t afford sick days to recuperate, and pay yourself a wage that would be considered illegally low. Not to mention that you don’t pay anything into any pension fond.

In Germany, being self-employed is called ‘Selbstständig’, and there is the not-a-joke-joke that it’s been a compound of ‘selbst’ (self) and ‘ständig’ (all the time).

[Kulze]

@Llama8

Well, you say that, but yeah, you did:

For the first: Yes.
That’s not based on wanting them to loose their jobs. That’s based on the quality standards provided towards the customer.
If a business only stays in business because of a few individuals rather then the overall community then that means they failed as a product and should be weeded out for either the next try that might be more successful or another team taking up the void left behind.

The second also! If a company cannot hold their promises then they are universally as a company not trustworthy. Hence that has no place in a proper society. You keep providing what you promised, you can chance the situation for newcomers… but those already having made a contract with you should universally be excempt from negative changes in business model.
No company, no matter which sector has a place to exist if they do that. That’s just how severe that is.

Third: Also obviously. Do you wanna now tell me that someone deceiving you doesn’t deserve to loose your business? I mean… that’s a given.

In all 3 cases the loss of jobs is a side-effect of failure, not a direct ask to remove everyone working on the project just cause.

@Llama8

But you absolutely have said that they should all be fired.

Nope, I said the product and company deserves to fail, and in specific circumstances should fail even.
This is a lengthy process and I’m sure anyone who sees the gradual downfall in their company and isn’t a dimwit will take measures to not be jobless but rather traverse into another company ultimately.

The alternative is upholding every corrupt, every thieving, every lieing and every exploiting company for the sake of the workers. Is that the goal?

Actions have consequences, simplye as that. And as brutal as it sounds it’s also only as brutal as it needs to be.

@Llama8

Do I think EHG are paying their employees at wahe slave levels?

I mean… with 4k+ housing it’s despite high wages sometimes not easy. A company can pay you well when the surroundings still don’t uphold a decent environment though. It’s a mess in some areas.

There’s even been a wave of laws stating that you’re not allowed to life inside a trailer in some places by now… which makes the whole situation even worse as what the heck should people actually do then?
They’ve been set up in the last years partially under the guise of reducing ‘wild camping’, with the ‘side effect’ of removing trailer habitation. This law also affects private areas though… so even if you got a livable trailer you’re only allowed to use overfilled, booked out camping spaces which cost excessive amounts despite having a completely livable environment at low cost available. Often with the argument of bypassing taxes like water connection, energy bills and so on.

@Llama8

Good for them, but we’re not talking relative or for their time which I would have thought would have been obvious when comparing slavery to arpg development conditions.

Yeah, but without relativity any comparison to situations before modernization fall short. Hence we can only provide relativity examples. They make no sense. It’s saying ‘universally with very few exceptions we cannot learn from the past as nowadays everything universally is better’. And that’s also not the goal.

Golden middle line, albeit missing that line is common in both directions. I did it with overextending the comparison to specific situations, you did it by not extending the leeway far enough.

@Llama8

You do know that the Swedish healthcare system is better than the Roman healthcare system?

Relative or in total?

@Llama8

I don’t know about you, but I’m not too fond of the idea of being considered property by law & my owner being legally allowed to execute me because they’re having a shitty day.

Yes, which is why I put the stipulation afterwards into it to take into consideration common social laws between the times.
Obviously living back then is worse… duh!
But for that we need to create a neutral baseline and compare it from there in terms of positioning related to that baseline.

As stated, my baseline was solely ‘possibility of improvement of circumstances’. Which is a going metric on how content a society is, or how much unrest happens. People don’t go and protest willy nilly. If you got protests for things happening which don’t affect your citizenship then that means they’re well off. If they start protesting for their own rights then that’s a showcase of something being entirely awry.

And if we address my mentioned stipulation it solely comes down the the foremost guiding aspect for people: Will my family be better off then me despite currently be in a atrocious situation?
The literal reason as to why despite being financially secure nowadays only a fraction of people get kids… it’s chance of upheaval which is missing. There’s even studies that show the higher IQ people have the less prone to have kids they are currently, meaning that the decision of founding a family is based on foresight for the future and comparison of the state they’re in versus the state they can expect their kids to be in.

@Llama8

What’s the term for that? Cherry picking?

Yeah, it is to a degree, I agree with you there.
Actually even mentioned it in my last(?) post that I did, for a reason, not to divert but to display specific aspects. The initial scale was out of proportion though from me.

@Llama8

they all indicate that it wasn’t guaranteed.

Yeah, they weren’t guaranteed. But ‘many’ household slaves got a so called ‘peculium’ which allowed them to acrue money until they could buy their freedom. If I ask google quickly it states 3 things:
It wasn’t universal.
It was common.
We have no exact census number.

And it makes sense as a peculium provides a incentive which reduces the risk of your investment into a slave to turn out negative, unless they were incompetent, died of illness/accidents or had a idiot as a owner it is to be expected that it was hence widespread.

One sentence especially cought my attention there:
“The peculium was effectively a “legal fiction” allowing slaves to manage personal funds, which in some cases became so common it was considered almost a right, despite slaves having no legal rights.”

@Llama8

Depends whether you were granted partial or full citizenship.

It’s a form of partial in this case. Exceptions for full only applied to former full citizens as much as I know, so the self-enslaved ones rather then the enforced ones. Including crimes as enforced ones.
So the total number is small, but it would relate to the example I’ve provided at least to a degree.

[quote=“Llama8, post:37, topic:80363”]
Yeah, again, no [/quote]

They managed for their master, they didn’t hold the position itself with the respective rights. Tiro was not allowed to vote.
The power didn’t come by law, it came from social position being close to people with power. They had no direct control.

@Llama8

But the majority of Roman citizens didn’t have voting power, so what’s your point?

But every citizen had the potential chance to get into such a position.
Depending on timeframe there was also a time when every full citizen had voting rights similar to today. Namely voting in the ‘Comitia Centuriata’ for example. It was to elect officials.
The voting power was mostly skewed though even then in favor of powerful, influentual and wealthy families.

@Llama8

You really did, Roman house slaves (highest part of their group) versus wage slaves (lowest part of their group).

Wage slaves are the highest of the 20% worst off citizens actually. Poverty line. Below is homeless, medically impaired and dieing because of a lack of funds, unable to work and so on… also only parts of each.
While household slaves were the highest of the 20% worst off citizens in the roman empire.

I’ve now stated that I think 5 times? It’s enough.

@HorusKBZ

In Germany, being self-employed is called ‘Selbstständig’, and there is the not-a-joke-joke that it’s been a compound of ‘selbst’ (self) and ‘ständig’ (all the time).

Yeah, works into the 80% of failing companies I mentioned and barely crawling along being a ‘success’ situation comparatively
It’s plainly spoken a mess with how badly you’re prepared for self-employment in middle europe nowadays, causes many creative and inventive things to fail despite providing a nigh universal upside, simply because of the business side being mismanaged.

[ExSea]

if speaking from a personal opinion if it were me i sell off LE and run.

EHG are passionate people they dont want LE to die. i respect them for that. a lot of Kickstarter backers keep saying shit like EHG are not upholding their kickstarter promises.

yo bitches.

LE would be dead if EHG didnt sell out to krafton. one of the possible reasons why EHG is hanging on so hard could be because they want to give as much value to the original backers as possible. they could easily have just walked away.

does it suck that it turned out this way? yes it sure does, but EHG is doing their best to salvage this game.

all that said, i really wouldnt mind if EHG released a “2025” offline only version of the game.

[Kulze]

@ExSea

all that said, i really wouldnt mind if EHG released a “2025” offline only version of the game.

Since 1.0 we have the ‘true offline’ mode.

Every single version of LE since that happened is available on the Steam Database, as Steam saves every single version individually for posterity on their servers actually.

So this is available actually. Just every version before true-offline was introduced is lost to time as it needs verification of the servers and hence cannot be started.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Steam/comments/611h5e/guide_how_to_download_older_versions_of_a_game_on/

This is a quick guide on how to do it. It’s a hassle to not be a inherently integrated function with a user-friendly UI… but it’s doable.

As for the other stuff:
EHG had literally years to act before it came to those issues. That’s the problematic timeframe, and why they deserve backlash for it.
The salvaging part afterwards has been done decently well. It was not acceptable to ever come to that. Had EHG shown as much competence in adapting their approach as they did to salvaging their product as a last hail-mary attempt then all the issues related to it wouldn’t even exist.

It includes undue expansion of the company.
It includes false primary focus.
It includes the absolute neglicence to not design any long-term revenue streams properly.
It includes the focus of expansion over solidification.

Each of them had a major impact… even a single one of them would’ve reduced the severty by postponing the situation for months, allowing to tackle the others respectively.
None of them were handled appropriately.

Downfall is easy to excuse when it comes from a single source.
Downfall is unexcusable when it comes from several places at once.
Why?
Because you can easily overlook a single… or two vectors of failure. But doing so with 4… 5… more… that’s simply hubris of some kind happening.

[ExSea]

tho i agree with you on many things. i would say, that they did their best. i would still believe that they are a passionate bunch of folks who came together perhaps lacking the experience on managing the project. if i m being honest, project management is not something anyone can do. many project managers IRL actually end up exceeding deadlines/budgets and get chewed up for it. but at least they have the safety net of being backed by their employer.

did LE go horribly wrong? yes. could it have been done better? much better in fact.

but thats the nature of kickstarters. we dont know the people behind the project. besides the scammers, there are many who dream large but lack the experience or knowledge to make things work. i dont know the devs personally, but the fact they’re trying this last ditch hail mary gives me reason to believe that at the very least they were really serious about making this work. just they were lacking expertise on how to make it work

[Kulze]

I get what you’re trying to say, but also… you’re too lenient there.

Yes, they’re passionate.
Yes, they did their best.

That counts for something, you’re absolutely right! A ‘shitty’ company doing the same thing will be treated far far worse… but EHG is not ‘shitty’ at least.
But what counts even more then good intentions is actual merit.

And you’re right:

@ExSea

perhaps lacking the experience on managing the project. if i m being honest, project management is not something anyone can do.

If you ‘lack experience on managing a project’ after doing it for 8 years then you’re well past your expiration time as a manager. You failed, you shouldn’t have that position.

And you’re also 100% right that not everyone can do it… so you grab someone which actually can do it, despite wanting to do whatever you like without limitations. Creative minds need someone who is savy in planning behind them to reign them in. And someone who’s savy in planning needs a creative mind to not provide well planned garbage.

@ExSea

but thats the nature of kickstarters.

Kickstarter just removes the aspect of providing good PR beforehand by removing individual sponsors and instead making it community based. You’re far more prone to catch several individuals willing to invest into your ideas then people who have a fixed mindset and have already come into money.

It doesn’t provide any barrier for competence sadly… and also scamming and similar stuff as you mention, yes.

In my personal dream-system intellectual property and execution of said ideas would be separated. Mandatory royalty system.
You can think something up, that idea gets listed in a database for free (basically patent system but without cost) and when you execute anything there is a fixed percentile of revenue you’ve got to give the people holding said intellectual property.

Allows not only you to execute things should you get the funds… but also others, profiting from both. So if you do your idea the best then you earn full… otherwise it still gets realized as someone else does it well.

But that’s a dream and not reality, far away from reality actually with all the shenanigans happening

@ExSea

but the fact they’re trying this last ditch hail mary gives me reason to believe that at the very least they were really serious about making this work.

I mean… a 7 digit check is kinda the thing they got, we don’t know how much is contractually ‘you have to stay with us for x time’ from the publisher or ‘we actually wanna make good’ form the devs. We just imagine it being the dev side as it’s the better situation for us as customers.

We gotta take the worst-case always into consideration though, likely or unlikely.

[ExSea]

@Kulze

We gotta take the worst-case always into consideration though, likely or unlikely.

yeah. the kickstarters still are customers/investors. i would say its a harsh tuition fee.

i got burned with GGG. i put a lot of time and money into a game that i no longer play. and i mean a lot. when i want to complain, i cant. its the nature of “supporting” the game dev. kickstarters have no safety net too. if the project burns. its simply a loss. we dont want it to burn but it is what it is.

[Llama8]

@ExSea

a lot of Kickstarter backers keep saying shit like EHG are not upholding their kickstarter promises.

But mah preeeneeceeepaaaals!!

It’s a lot easier to sit on the sidelines & throw stones than it is to actually do something. Especially when you can sit in your nice comfy chair & feel righteous by letting the anger flow.

@Kulze

We gotta take the worst-case always into consideration though, likely or unlikely.

That explains a lot tbh.

[ExSea]

@Llama8

Especially when you can sit in your nice comfy chair & feel righteous by letting the anger flow.

i mean like what can they even do? kickstarters have a disclaimer where theres nothing much the supporters can do legally if the project goes south.

angry kickstarters yell at cloud! RAAAAH!

[CaiusMartius]

This is something a LOT of people don’t “understand” about these crowdfunding sources. I’ve run over a dozen Kickstarter/Indiegogo campaigns (I eventually stopped because I grew to hate the model) and every single time you create one it has an automatic disclaimer add that states “things happen so before you pledge be aware of this possibility.”

It’s essentially the same as Hollywood film funding. It’s high RISK high reward. Everyone tends to selectively forget the “HIGH RISK” part.

[Kulze]

To be fair… it’s mostly high risk - low reward for non-investment based crowdfunding.

In terms of EHG’s backer levels it’s especially laughable.
Access to the game ← great!
Then it goes up… all fine!
And what’s the primary ‘return aspect’ for people backing higher? Small crap which is useless or simply fun… but non-functional plainly spoken. You did get full value in cosmetic points though!

And that’s the laughable part!
Imagine backing EHG for 10k like 4 poor sods did, getting the points… and 8 years after that you cannot even spend half of your kickstarter acquired in-game funds

[Llama8]

@Kulze

And what’s the primary ‘return aspect’ for people backing higher? Small crap which is useless or simply fun… but non-functional plainly spoken. You did get full value in cosmetic points though!

The same as the various digital special/moar-special/even-moar-special editions of games you can get (eg, BL3/4 & many others). It gives people the option to throw more money at a developer if they wish.

[Kulze]

Sure, the direction is similar… but it’s not even comparable sadly.

If we simply take Battlefield 6 for example, with the ‘Phantom Edition’ then the difference is 30€.
You get the battle pass (shit mechanic but anyway), pay 2 progress (also shit) and auxiliary stuff.

But for ‘value’ you get actually cosmetics at least. 4 Skins for the character (which all need to be fully tested for clipping and designed after all), 3 weapon skins, 1 vehicle skin and some basically non-visible auxiliary extra shit again.

That’s 30€… I’m talking here about backers of LE. Especially the higher tier backers which have been completely fucked over because of said incompetence related to the income channels.
Imagine paying 10000€, being told ‘You can use those 10000€ freely for decorative crap’ and then you don’t produce anything to buy!

That’s a completely different level of crap for a customer… you pay for something for the ‘theory of existence’ only… as theoretically you can get everything… but practically nothing exists.
By providing such a reward aspect EHG basically stated ‘we’ll populate our shop heavily to allow the usage’ but they never did it.