Bonus Stability makes the "zoomy" problem worse! Here's why, and how EHG could potentially fix this

General
41

Or, we could think outside the box…

  • ALWAYS spawn just next to the objective.
  • BUT the objective just gives a small amount of stability, and NO ITEMS WHATSOEVER (including reward chest).
  • You want loot? Go chase some monsters. You just want to go to boss? You can do it fast, but no items in the process. None at all (including the boss himself while we are at it).
  • All sorted.

Everybody would hate this solution, both zoomers and non-zoomers, but that would amuse me. A lot. :innocent:

Anyway, I don’t think there is really an issue. Or if there is, it isn’t one that can be solved.
A lot of people will always want to play (if you can call that play) as fast as possible, and then a bit faster still, with the bestest of all the bestest builds. No matter what you implement, a huge amount of players will want to skip the story, skip the monos, skip the monsters, basically, skip the game.
I don’t get it, but I say, let them do that if that’s what they they enjoy. shrugs.

This is why we have the long-lived legend about PoE only being “playable” with one specific build per season. This is, and has always been, entirely untrue, but it is still being repeated all the time.
If one solution is 0.01% better than another one at min-max level, it becomes the “only viable way”.

That said, lots of really good ideas in this thread (and a really good opening post for those lucky enough to have read it before it vanished). Hopefully can inspire the devs.

42

Sorry but that kind of approach to what is actually a leisure activity for 99% of gamers is just utterly moronic.

Dont agree there… I have been playing computer games for over 30 years and I play games for fun… If a game has an “unfun” mechanism to achieve optimal strategy, I stop playing uninstall and never look back… and I would do it with a smile on my face…

If my time based idea isnt good - and I did say it would piss people off - thats totally ok by me…

43

That’s not what I wanted to say. I’m sorry if my response was not toned well.

I just wanted to Express my level of frustration with you deleting your posts. Because they are a very good contribution to the community.

And even if not, you should not feel as if you have to delete your posts.

For sure you can do whatever you want on the internet and you don’t need a guy like me to approve your behaviour. I’m sorry for that.

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44

And yet that is how some people (not you, evidently) approach things PoE is a good example of this.

45

:wink: If you mean PoE then you are 100% correct… I stopped playing it in 2016 specifically because of coming to this kind of realisation… I am a little slow sometimes but eventually I do get to a point where the penny drops and I realise progression is no longer fun and its time to move on…

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46

I feel exactly the same.
And even if you happen to be wrong, it can be useful for others to read about it and how.

47

Couldn’t have said it better myself. Even worse still that they’ve doubled down on that mentality time and time and time and time again.

48

Doesn’t change that players WILL use optimal strats.

These players are playing a stat based ARPG, they are HERE for optimisation.

It doesn’t matter if this is for leisure, they will do it even if it isn’t fun - even if it is stupid.

Again, the rush-to-objective playstyle is an example of people playing the optimal playstyle at the expence of fun.

Your solution just changes the optimal playstyle to something even less fun. Players will go for that playstyle even if it is a bad idea.

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49

This quote will get deleted once you delete your post.

queermathsgirl
Yep :+1: What a weak-willed little bitch I am

This on the other hand won’t!

I don’t understand why you keep deleting your posts and I have already reported that like 2 weeks ago, hoping that would change. Of course this is not against TOS and frankly you can do whatever you want, but it makes no sense and is frustrating to a lot of people here!

Don’t know if you are just young and/or have a serious problem with your (lack of) self-confidence. Maybe you just want the attention? Maybe you’re a troll? Doesn’t matter to me at all. Just know that you’re not going to make a lot of friends by deleting all your post, especially when they are of higher quality than most of the other stuff you see in here. Even if you feel like your opinion is “wrong” (which is impossible) or your facts/math is wrong (which is very possible), why delete it? Do you not want others to engage in the conversation or, god forbid, learn something from your mistakes? Whatever the case, you can keep doing whatever you want.

If you want some advice from an old sh!t who used to be kind of similar to you: Stop giving so many f*cks! Especially about random people on a videogame forum.

By the way, I’m loving the mono changes, even if I didn’t get to play as much as I’d like to since the patch. And I’m still salty about the Flurry changes :wink:

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50

I’ve seen a few of these kinds of complaints in the past, and I thought this would be as good a time as any just to make a quick comment regarding this. This is not directed towards anyone in particular, or in regards to anyone in particular. I’m only replying as a point of reference. The internet can frankly be a fairly spooky place sometimes. Many people may want to try to get involved with a community, try to share their ideas, and immediately get feedback concerning their ideas that may be a bit rough.

Generally, I personally find it’s the first few responses that have the hardest responses, and you’ll find later on that more people may come by that agree. However, it’s still quite easy to have social anxiety in such an environment and want to pull back when you receive some of these earlier responses. And while we certainly understand that that can cause frustration for some people to lose that information on what the topic was, we believe it’s important for people to be able to make the decision to rescind (delete) previous comments or topics. Perhaps because they’re no longer confident in them, or perhaps because they’ve changed their mind. For whatever reason it may be, It is not against the code of conduct or other rules to delete your own posts or replies . If anyone believes this is causing a serious issue, they’re free to reach out to us through a support ticket, and we would be happy to discuss it. We would however ask that players do not harass other community members if they are removing their posts for whatever reason, and instead bring any problems to us.

Lastly, Our forums also provide a great place for us to gauge what’s going on in the community, and see what people’s responses are. With this, while detailed feedback is always great, even things like “I think X sucks” is still important feedback, as while it may not clarify what the problem is, it lets us know that there may be a problem. We’ll then see if it’s a common source of complaints, and if so then work to gauge why the complaint exists. Even with detailed feedback, we may find that there’s a more “core” reason for something and try to work around that. So we do encourage players to leave their feedback on the forums whenever they’re confident doing so, because it may allude to something else, or provide part of a much bigger picture of something going on.

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51

This is at the crux of the issue for me.

Some of my favorite builds and the ones ive played into high corruption have been MA/Bear/Abomination because its basically Herald of agony from PoE, which is also one of my favorite builds in that game. I love pet builds, and I love the feeling of pets being like an army you lead that slowly makes ground in a battle, you are pushing back the enemy line, this usually is slow going. Minion builds, especially solo minion builds clear like booty.

But I end up spending the most time on them because they are the most interesting to tinker with and play for me. Ive tried playing some of the “faster” builds like VK autobomber and they felt clunky and not fun to me. So I end up taking them much less far corruption/playtime wise.

I think people dont actually know if they like slow or fast builds, its just a bit of a sour grapes situation in terms of someone else getting what they feel is more for less. If you want to play fast, play a fast build. if you enjoy the build you are playing, why are you even upset?

I think the current change is good because it rewards players for playing whatever way they want. There is clear trade offs or gains by doing one or the other, and I think EHG can see that and will adjust accordingly.

For example some builds are really good at bursting down objectives or bosses, like look at the new static, it can do tremendous damage, or a channeled lightning blast build etc. These builds clear really badly with target limits, and high investment costs. So rushing to the objective is better for them even if its less stability per mono, because its more stability per unit of time. So even if EHG nerfs base stability and rewards killing monsters more, those builds still might opt for a rushing playstyle as its gonna be better for them either way.

Where as builds that might have poor single target can instead opt to pull and nuke as many monsters as possible as that offers them the best stability per hour reward.

And I think the key take away is that no matter what you do, players are going to find the option thats best for them and their build. So its best to offer many ways to play.

52

Ive been reported multiple times by randoms here for just giving feedback people cant handle, I even have PMs from developers advising me of this

not even allowed to delete your own posts or you get reported. lol

53

This, entirely this. Part of the divide is simply due to the nature of the Monoliths. No idea how it could be handled but a different system that provided the same level of benefit to slower builds would be the solution.

It is not a 1 to 1 comparison but in PoE you see some builds for mapping and clear speed, those builds are not built for bossing and they tend to skip such maps, trade sell etc. Conversely you also see builds that are slow moving boss beating juggernauts and they complement the previous build style as both feed into the other.

As long as the current monolith framework is in place there will be a divide. Perhaps it could be balanced so that the divide is not as large or punishing for either side, however in my view it is more beneficial to provide an outlet for each activity rather then trying to cram a game of Mahjong into Chess.

54

Personally, if I get something wrong, I do an edit - to preserve the original text. Freedom of speech involves the freedom to not speak and if someone chooses to delete messages, while it IS annoying, I do not think there is anything wrong with it, it is their call.

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55

And to make the “best” option at any time more build dependant. Anything that just gives more loot and stability will be run no matter what, but if it gives specific loot types or gives rewards based on something that would be hard for certain builds(such as spawning tough foes), then it would not allways be run.

56

First of all, thank you very much @queermathsgirl for restoring your initial post (and even improving on it). I really appreciate that and I think the rest of the community does too! :+1:

Nice! I hope you didn’t get into trouble or something like that.
As long as you didn’t act like an a-hole, of course. :wink:

Nope. They are allowed to delete their own posts.
Just like I’m allowed to say that it’s not a very productive way of having a discussion.
I didn’t ask anyone to ban them or something like that.
Just to maybe give them a warning or something like that.
At least in my mind (and I might be wrong about that) it’s in the interesting of a game developer to get feedback from the community and let them have a lively discussion about their game, especially an early acces game. By deleting your posts, especially if you are the OP, you severly cripple that discussion for both the developer and the rest of the community.
Of course that is your good right, but maybe there is a better alternative than deleting all your posts? I’m not trying to force them to stop deleting their posts, I’m just trying to show them an alternative that might be more valuable to the game designers and the whole community. :slight_smile:

Same. I usually add an edit at the end. But that’s just the way I “learned” it in all my years of being a forum user and the few years I used to be a admin in a big forum of another ARPG.
Also while this might work in the context of a digital platform, it does not work quite the same irl. You can’t “unsay” something you said in someones face unless you hit their head really hard with a hammer or something like that. :wink: ← don’t take this too seriously, of course I know what you are trying to say.

From now on I’m trying to focus on the real topic of this thread again as this went offtopic really hard. So if anyone feels the need to talk more about this topic feel free to do so, but I’ll only reply in DMs about this.

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57

Echo mobs need Echo only loot that drops from normal mobs in echos. A good example of this is Monster Implicit in Grim Dawn, where all different types of mobs, rare, and bosses could drop specific items and mods that you could only find on those items. Some enabled less common builds and other were chase items that you could farm for better rolls.

Currently, killing mobs(in echos) feels very unrewarding and that is taking into account echo chest at the end where you can get some good stuff. Giving them some type of “really rare” drops that people could farm for could go a long way into making them feel rewarding in echos.

Yes uniques and exalted items exist, but you can get these from every enemy in the game past a certain level. Different areas, whether arenas, dungeons, or monos, should all have special loot tables for each mode that you can only receive in those modes. This is done to some degree already as it is with uniques and various dungeon and arena reward choices. Carrot on a stick is what seems to keep players invested long term as well as overall fun.

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58

That is a sentiment that I cannot cosign.

I agree there should be build around and chase items, tying them to Echo specific drops I do not think is a positive step, nor would it solve the divide between slow vs zoomie.

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59

These are the two hardest perspectives to balance around in the ARPG genre. There will be players (casual non-streamers who want to maximize limited time) and content creators (streamers) that have all day to come up with amazing fast pace screen-clearing builds that will cause the dev team to constantly get out the nerf bat to stop it.

Now, the key point that you both make is that we all have a different definition of what “FUN” is! Some want to feel that rush of god-like power blowing up entire screens, and then there are others that want to take 10 seconds to kill a level 1 beetle or 10 minutes to drop an empowered boss.
Some play for the tactics, some play for the wealth, and some go for a combination of a myriad of goals. As long as we continue to have fun, and it seems that is what the stability bonus is doing then minor tweaks are probably all that is necessary at this point.

60

Not viable in this game, as you cannot easily manipulate what mobs you find in monos - it isn’t like grim dawn where enemies scale to your level and thus wherever you farm the loot will be level appropriate.

Grim dawn monster implicits let you farm them at any level without the base type dropping off. The loot system is fundamentally different.

1 Like