I must admit, I like that idea. Either that or make the bonus non-linear so the first X% of mobs in the map give a relatively small bonus & the last X% of the mobs in the map give a much larger bonus.
Yeah, that too.
1 Like
Thanks for the great analysis, @queermathsgirl !
I would like to extend on the proposed solution - exponential scaling:
What if, the extra stability reward only activates at 70%++ (of the bar filled).
Or: They would introduce the bonus reward for full clear or 90%++.
That way, once could see if it makes sense for them to go for it, depending on how much they filled the bar already, after completing the main objective.
1 Like
This is the solution I like most
2 Likes
I really like this too.
1 Like
Very interesting. Now, let’s see how EHG interprete the new situation and how they adjust/react.
1 Like
This would seem viable and would shut down the zoomy-farm playstyle quite a bit. Those who farm their way to the objective won’t have too much trouble going out of their way to get 70%. Regular zoomy would still be superior, but the gap between farming and zooming would be much smaller.
In my data the only value above 60% was this one wacky 89%. So it may not be entirely fool-proof, but seems like it would work 99% of the time.
1 Like
As a reply to:
“get rid of the quest marker”:
Well, nice perspective!
What makes the zoomy Playstyle possible?
The quest marker.
Maybe instead of increasing the rewards for cleaning, it could be as simple, as introducing the quest marker at 50% of the clear bar progress.
If I go find the quest objective earlier, well congrats me, on to the next echo we go!
Otherwise I slay myself through the map and get guidance at 50%~
1 Like
Another very interesting post… I love how you turn gut feelings about an update / mechanic into something concrete and factual with good old complicated math… 
Definitely think this is a “test” on the part of the devs to see how it works… Personally, I like that they are making changes but I agree that this isnt going to work as it stands right now.
I like your Scaling bonuses idea and I thought of another counterintuitive one that might piss some players off…
Without penalising zooming play, how about simply rewarding a more casual slower approach with a time based solution.
e.g.
-
No change to current values for people who want to zoom
-
Add a bonus multiplication of additional stability based on the time taken to completed… Ie… similar to your scaling based on mobs away from the path - just based not on distance from the shortest route, but on time… i.e. a spider killed in the first minute gives 10 stability, but the same spider killed in the 3rd minute gives 50…
-
Obviously have a cap based on whatever metric meets the requirement of and average mono run duration (bell curve kinda shape)… so that people cannot load the map, go make coffee and then return to get the best stability boost… or even link it to time “moving” to prevent someone camping in the map to get the bonuses…
So this doesnt penalise Zooming… it just rewards taking your time exponentially (to a point).
ps. PLEASE pretty please… dont delete your post… I am literally begging here… picture it… big powerlifting jock actually begging on his knees…
2 Likes
You mean, we should wander on the map, hoping to find something that looks like an objective?
Please no! I agree to reward non-zoomy players. I’m happy to visit maps and kill stuff (hey, that’s why I play the game), but I don’t want to be entirely lost.
2 Likes
This was a great post. You have some amazing suggestions for improvements and there are more discussed in the thread. My issue is with your conclusion of “EHG tried to fix the zooming problem”. I don’t believe that was their intention in the slightest. Bonus stability is such a huge quality of life feature that adds decision making later in the game. I cannot fathom how removing it is one of your potential fixes to a problem they were not directly addressing.
Their statements were then always followed up with “We’d like to add an incentive for players to kill monsters within an echo.” which I believe the patch has accomplished. The objective is clearly listed at the very top of the patch notes.
The patch has addressed numerous issues continuously brought up by the community.
Timeline completion requirements
As you mentioned, most players will see an increase of 50% or more in their stability gains without changing their playstyle. The removal of the first two quest echoes in empowered also streamlines the process.
Corruption
On a fresh timeline I was able to accumulate 2 Gazes of Orobyss by the time I reached a +10 corruption node. Providing 8 corruption each, they are worth an entire monolith run. Again, players are not required to alter their playstyle for this benefit. Completing the quest echo and not dying to the shade is a small ask for the amount of time potentially saved.
Stability gains and bonus stability
Compare the initial node of my web against a deep one.
It’s quite easy to determine whether or not clearing beyond an objective is worth the effort early on. However, once you begin farming at capped stability deep into a web the “zoomy-farm” playstyle can become suboptimal. The web thins out and it is often more efficient to take the scenic route to an objective. Naturally, map texture and objective spawns influence your play and decision making but that’s part of the beauty of bonus stability - it’s optional. The amount you choose to interact with it is totally up to you.
My point in all of this is to say that you must look at the features altogether. Bonus stability provides players access to a quest boss faster which feeds into higher corruption gains.
4 Likes
Without doubt this is a complex issue… but its also open to interpretation… and because everything is linked its hard to look at everything from every perspective.
I see the “incentive to kill monsters within an echo” to be exactly the same as “fixing the zooming problem”… The how they go about this, then impacts on the stability issue but to me its still killing monsters vs rushing through the objective.
If you really want to take the broader concept into account - I also see the stability issues as addressing the complaint by many players that it takes too long to do mono bosses… and indirectly how alts can access mono content faster too…
I dont link stability to corruption levels like you do… I see these as a separate update to motivate doing more Orobyss islands and potentially getting to higher levels of difficulty faster - entirely different thing to me than farming mono bosses. - and another thing addressing peoples complaints as to how long it can take to get to higher corruption levels on alts…
I see lots of different sides to this… and as I have said before, I think its good the devs are testing things out… but I dont think as you do, that this isnt addressing zooming - I think they are painting with a bigger brush to see how things go…
Given that previously the “method” of choice was to use nodes to reroll uncompleted for an additional shot at the desire echo bonus, coupled with the reroll all nodes, before moving onto a higher corruption/reset. I wonder how much if any this is an actual factor worth considering. I am not making a farming vs zooming comparison simply questioning if any zoomy is going to entertain such a question, if not it does seem like a moot point where as there is no functional change for that play style, regardless of the overall changes.
A lot of game design is psychological and this feature is no exception. Just giving you any explicit benefit and a cute progress bar to fill up makes slower clears feel a lot more rewarding than they were before, even though relatively speaking they’re still less efficient than fast clears. For a lot of players this is enough, they never did the math and generally care more about how their preferred playstyle feels rather than how efficient it is. And even powergamers are somewhat influenced by this kind of mind trick stuff.
I don’t think the “zoomy farming” is at all equivalent to the “ignore all enemies” playstyle that EHG have said they want to avoid. Adding the requirement to actually kill enemies while rushing the shortest path makes it significantly more challenging as both a skill check and a test of your build, especially as Corruption increases (and with the changes I guess a lot of players will reach high corruption much faster). It’s not obvious to me that this is a “bad” pattern or playstyle.
IMO this patch is a major success that makes mono much more fun to play. That said I don’t think some numbers tuning is a bad idea. It would be fine/good to slightly up the proportion of extra rewards reserved for slow maps or fuller clears. But things should definitely not go all the way to strictly incentivising full clears - in a lot of respects objective rush is a more interesting pattern with a higher skill ceiling.
3 Likes
Thanks for the insights on how much bonus corruption one can expect per Gaze of Orobyss!
Also, I agree with your point, that we should also look closer at what the goal of EHG was bzw. what was stated.
Another Idea, I had in my mind, which might seem a little bit too powerful, but what if:
Every time you full clear an echo, the maximum bonus stability is raised by 1.
(This stacks obviously, but resets once you slay Orobyss)
This way it becomes more and more rewarding to full clear.
Well, that’s just the inherent problem with how monos work, currently. The ONLY objective in them is to finish. There are no side quests, no ‘hidden’ areas, no special spawns and all the loot is the exact same randomly generated shatter-bait you get from every other source in the game. So why wouldn’t you just throw on the strictest loot filter and rush through as quick as you could? Heck, even the targetable-farm loot you get is only obtained after you complete the mono…
The game has plenty of scenery content at this point. But now it needs to flesh out that scenery with things that encourage the players to interact with it, instead of treating it like a highway to the final destination.
- side quests (collect X items, kill X of mob type, hunt specific mob, get specific item… whatever)
- hidden areas
- something like cow level mini-quest in D3 to craft quirky item
- special farms to create special crafting materials
etc etc etc
3 Likes
I would imagine that people who like zooming would see any buff to a slower playstyle as a nerf to a faster playstyle.
1 Like
As I said in the other thread/post about game design - most of this is more psychological than technical… the key here is not to change anything with the playstyle you are trying to dissude… incentivise the alternative to the point where if anyone runs the alternative, they realise that there is no downside to stopping the zooming play and eventually they stop doing it…
Yeah you’re right. My bad. Sorry 
Maybe with a block feature you won’t see my silly posts anymore.
What I was describing is my experience once 400 corruption is surpassed. The method hasn’t changed. The issue is, if you’re unlucky and do this to a timeline then suddenly your other timelines become really difficult to farm really fast due to the catch up mechanic.
The stability granted per node caps at some point. I think the initial node starts at 50 stability and increments by 1 at 300 corruption. At 400+ you start at 50 and increment by 2. Once this point is reached I do my best to avoid increasing corruption in order to keep my timelines casually farmable. It is more efficient for me to acquire stability with the new bonus mechanic in a lucrative node rather than expedite the reset. That isn’t to say I’m backtracking through the whole map but I do make a point to clear large packs and the area surrounding the objective.