I agree with you 100%.
You have described the problems well.
If EGH doesn’t rethink this, they will lose the kind of people they need to keep the game alive in the long term
Sure, competition leads to innovation. But so does collaboration. We don’t always need to bash our heads together, not everything has to be a competition.
I can be quite competitive in a professional environment to feed my ego with success.
But I play games for my leisure, and I have more fun not competing, for competition usually means I have to do stuff I don’t enjoy as much. Those are often diametral goals.
It is fine if you have fun in a competing environment. Fun and competition do not exclude each other, and in some games or genres, I enjoy some competition in the form of PvP. But generalizing more competitive = more fun is a flawed argument, because fun is subjective and not inherently linked to competition and higher, faster, farther.
Considering everything as a competition and disregarding everything as not being fun if it is not competitive is self-limiting.
A game does not need to be serious, it’s okay to waste your time with something silly, hilarious, and ineffective.
It’s more likely that the overperforming builds will be tuned down. 1k+ is never intended by the devs and there are already a lot less builds that do 1k+ than there were in 1.0.
Much like there are a lot more builds that can comfortably do 300c+ in 1.1.
Most casual players don’t actually look up builds. They’re casual, they’re not spending time looking up builds before playing. They just start the game, choose a class that seems fun to them and go from there. It’s not likely they will look up anything until they hit a wall.
Progressive, yes. Competitive, not really. ARPGs are, at its core, a single player experience. The vast vast majority of players play alone. So they’re not competing with anyone, unless they’re aiming for leaderboards.
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It’s guaranteed given that’s largely what the devs have said.
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So, on the one hand I don’t think anyone knows exactly what a casual player is thinking or doing right up until the point where they stop playing. They are casual, their approach to games is just alien to anyone reading this forum.
On the other hand… WHY IN GODS NAME don’t devs prioritize making builds based upon the main themes of the class on the ‘strong’ side of ‘balanced’. It’s like the designers get bored with making the bread and butter stuff strong, and look for weird interactions to hide in skills that have nothing to do with each other thematically. Or make a skill that is just so good, every build looks for ways to include it. And then they leave it that way.
Example from D4 - werewolf druid build has been comically bad for every season.
Example from LE - Shield-Focused Forge Guard. Just assume that a casual player is going to throw Shield Bash, Shield Toss, Ring of Shields, Shield Rush onto the skill bar. Why isn’t this, right out of the box, something you can make decently strong?
IMO, a casual player builds his, this is going to be awesome!, Captain America-inspired FG, only to keep getting his ass handed to him as the difficulty ramps. Maybe they go to a build site and what does he see? Sites filled with build guides that include a schizophrenic mis mosh of skills that, thematically, have nothing to do with each other. If character flavor is important, he just leaves. I don’t know how devs don’t know this. EHG literally made four shield abilities that, largely, have no synergies with each other at all.
There should be nodes that increase Shield Bash based upon how many enemies have recently been hit with shield throw. There should be a good build that has you throw one or two shield throws, kick of the shield wall, shield charge into the boss and bash him with the shield for good damage and then the player begins it all over again. Why aren’t there skill nodes that support this build? I don’t get it.
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- shield bash, can make shield throw ricochet more often.
- shield bash can increase your block chance and block effectiveness. shield throw can scale damage with block chance and block effectiveness.
- shield bash can cover more area if you have shields from ring of shields.
- ring of shields can give you a short block chance buff and block effectiveness, increasing shield throws damage.
- ring of shields provides allies for shield throw to ricochet of
- ring of shields can heal you and thus increase your block effectiveness by 50%, further pushing shield throw’s crit multiplier.
- ring of shields can increase the AoE of shield rush
- shield bash gets added damage based on your block effectiveness, thus benefitting from ring of shields.
These are the interactions I remember. I don’t know how strong a build I can make out of it - but they are there.
I tried a bunch, couldn’t make it work decently, let alone strong. So as far as I’m concerned, my critique still stands; there is no follow-through on thematic builds, which seems like the prime target for a casual player. And it’s not just EHG, it’s endemic in the ARPG space. I give PoE a pass because the game doesn’t assign skills to classes, so everything is by the game’s nature, a mash up.
And the interactions aren’t well thought out -
- bash only feeds throw, throw doesn’t feed bash. Why does this matter? Well because you’d start at range from a boss (where it’s safe), then when you’ve self buffed your damage and defense close with rush, and hit with a turbo bash, allowing you to move back out of boss range to begin the process again. A fun, dynamic play style that just isn’t supported.
- Bash has horrible base damage, because Bash’s primary benefit is in stunning and has a long cooldown. Bash has skills that remove the cooldown/add mana cost, which makes the stun/ignite non-guaranteed, but I don’t know if it’s possible to make Bash hard-hitting (haven’t tried it) - seems like this might be doable if you have a high end shield that has high block effectiveness… but a casual player doesn’t start with a high end shield.
- I found Ring of Shields very cool in concept, super underwhelming in execution. I loved that Ring of Shields and Shield Rush seems like they work together, but when I used it, it was also very underwhelming (it’s been awhile, maybe it’s improved). You need to put 16 points in to that skill-path to get to Sturdy Shields (every six seconds heals allies which gives 50% block effectiveness)
- Shield Rush is cool and fun, but imo it’s all about closing with an enemy (or you just use it to zoom around the map)
- Shield Throw is fun, is pretty straight-forward how to build for it, and it’s decently scaleable, damage-wise.
So EHG is way ahead of the curve for this particular theme, and yet, completely failed to take it into the endzone as I’m not aware of anyone putting all these abilities together into something that anyone thinks of as a ‘successful build’.
So… thanks? I’m not sure how pointing out that EHG tried and failed to do a thing does anything other than reinforce my point; ARPG devs simply don’t do the obvious thing of making thematic builds fun and decently strong. Are they intentionally making them underperform to try to get players to look for secret sauce? That seems like a weird strategy.
They added the unique 1h axe Monument of Protection
Have a nice Shield
50% increased block effectiveness takes 11 points in ring of shields, but the additional block chance and added block effectiveness brings this to a total of 18 points for buffing you.
Gets 2 added damage per 40 block chance if you pick the node. Have 8k block effectiveness? Well, +400 flat added damage. 8k is not unrealistic.
But yes, the buff from shield throw to shield bash is one-dimensional, and that’s a shame.
Every melee attack has very low base damage (1-2 usually).
Best i ve read in a long time in any gaming forum, thx 
But i think we under estimate casual players. Most games nowadays have some kind of complexity and interactions. It is not tetris anymore. I dont think casual players just log in, start playing and choose randomly just and skills/nodes/passives because it looks cute without not doing some kind if research or at least google for a build and follow same strictly. Where we are at the point again that they will not pick then a D Tier build…
Casual is for me someone who plays maybe 1-2 hours every so and then the game. Whixh doesnt exclude to pick a build before…
And if you watch player count for LE, i dont think that there are too many casuals left.
thats the point. it shouldn’t be like this, when rarest mob in the game drop shit reward. even if set lizard would be more common - it would be bad too, coz its literally useless and all this items on the ground will just trigger brain with green item which you don’t even want to pickup
Are you seriously calling Glyphs of Envy and Exalted Items shit reward? Omg… I would punch someone for more of those.
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Those are cool, new in 1.1?
I’m not getting your math. It’s 11 points to complete Phalanx, which boosts armor. Another 5 points to complete Sturdy Shields which brings us to 16 to get the +50% block effectiveness on heal.
… oh, I get my error, I’m just counting the max for each node to get max Sturdy Shields and you are counting the min needed… are you? No your not, I get 10 if I go minimum to complete Sturdy Shields. It doesn’t matter, I get your point, it’s 10-11 points to get the +50% to block effectiveness on heal.
I’ve got to say you seem determined to argue details that are just an example of something that still is in support of my point. Are you doing that on purpose, like, saying without saying that you disagree with my point? Or are you just wanting to talk about a how much support for a shield-themed build EHG has put into Forge Guard (while still missing the mark)? Maybe you are trying to keep incorrect information from spreading?
I’m genuinely confused because you haven’t actually made a point.
Not unrealistic for who? Nevermind, I’m not interested in that, what I want to know is what is realistic for a level 60ish char that a casual player is taking into mono’s (I’m assuming they took their time through campaign, and I can’t actually remember what level you’d be when you just entered mono’s from an extended campaign run, so I’m guessing 60).
I’m going to force you to stay on point with the conversation, we’re talking about a casual player that is just picking every ability with “shield” in it’s name, and they are trying to make a “decent build”*
Here is a shield bash build that someone created that has a block effectiveness of 5605, giving +140 damage, which is nice. Build has 2 LP1 items decently smashed and 1 LP 4 item also decently smashed.
https://www.lastepochtools.com/planner/o3G137Eo
Let’s define it;
“decent build”*, is a build which a new player of average ability should be able to clear 300 corruption without pulling out their hair.
Fair point
Let’s talk about this a bit more.
Ring of shields
- Last 10 seconds, can be increased via Enduring Defense (6 seconds for three points) and Displacement (doubles the duration, but makes Ring of Shields a targeted ability)
- Ring of Shield has several nodes that buff on cast - if you like these buffs, you want more cooldown
- Sturdy Shields buffs block effectiveness , but it’s not on cast, it’s on the shields healing you and last four seconds. BUT the shield heal every six seconds. Even if you had enough skill points to pay for one of the buffs, let’s say Defensive Shields*, you wouldn’t have both buffs at the same time because Def Shields goes off on cast and last four seconds, Sturdy Shields goes off six seconds later (and lasts for four seconds). Sturdy Shield wants you to extend the duration of the shields, but every other buff node wants you to reduce your cooldown.
This is a skill that looks, at first glance, like it could do some work, but in practice, it’s just too difficult or impossible to bring it all together. When I used it, I never felt like it was actually making me tougher.
*Defensive Shields - Buff on cast, last 4 seconds, 5 points max, 3% block chance per point, 30 block effectiveness per point. So, max, +15% block chance 150 block effectiveness. Seems like this node needs to have it’s block effectiveness buffed.
The axe is, the shield was added in 1.0.
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Seriously? Every echo drops 10x more exalts than a set item lizard. And how many envys you need if you are not crafting them on ever shitty exalt item you get.
So no, it is not a rewarding thing to get some morr exalts you dont need and few envys
I know the axe is new, the shield is 1.0 for all I know.
Yes. Trim what you don’t absolutely need. If you have spare, you can always add more points for increased armour and the like later.
You wrote how shield throw does not support shield bash - which is true, and gave some ideas what shield throw should do for shield bash. It seemed either a loopsided argument from your perspective since you ignored all the other synergies the shield skills have, or you weren’t aware - so I made a little list.
For someone who shows some interest in making this work into empowered monos, farming a bit for it.
But if you go only for easily obtainable stuff: passive points and skill specialisation nodes that add block effectiveness, pick up an idol or two with block effectiveness, there are several types.
- 1000 points from the passive tree.
- 500 from shield bash.
- 150 from ring of shields
- a potential +100 per summoned shield from the passive tree, so let’s simply say 500, even though it can be more than that.
- Intrinsic value from shields, let’s say roughly 200
- how much affix stuff do you think is realistic? Idols? Good for another 1000 points flat easily for someone who looks for it. There are 3 types of sentinel idols that can roll with block effectiveness, rings, gloves, and shields.
Now add the 50% increased bonus from ring of shields and maybe the unique axe with another 30%.
Extra points if someone looks what could improve shield even more and they find out that sigils from the paladin tree buff both block chance and block effectiveness per sigil- but that is not so obvious, of course.
This is what I put together in 1.1 before the refresh with stuff I found in that time, and I barely pushed into empowered timelines. 8k was what I can sustain as block effectiveness if I switch the sceptre for the unique axe. And as you see, there is still potential upwards with other idols. Unfortunately, I got the block chance slam and not the T6 block effectiveness on the shield, nor the less damage taken on block. Since my block chance is almost always at 100+% with the buffs.
https://www.lastepochtools.com/planner/A8v83W5B
The build you posted will get much more than 8k with the buffs you can get. +180 base value from 4 sigils, +100* number of shields, and an additional 50% increase to the total to the 35% the axe brings. Oh yeah, let’s not forget 650 points from ring of shields and shield bash.
Yeah, but you have a passive that will summon shields on block, this can trigger up to 3 times each 6 seconds, giving you staggered summoned shields that will cast the healing at a staggered interval. And it seemed to me (when I played it) that those summoned shields even trigger the 4-second buff to block chance and block effectiveness, though I am not 100% sure.
I think so, too. They could bring it up to the 500 that shield bash brings.
If you accidentally run into 300 corruption and clear it as a casual without even farming for and tinkering a bit on your build idea, the game is far too easy. The skills are not decent, they are busted. Reaching 300 corruption should require some smart build choices and itemization.
Everything that reaches this half asleep needs to be toned down 
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That’s not what I’m saying, but I TOTALLY get why you think I’m saying that (I do seem to be saying that, but no).
Here’s what I’m saying;
- A decent build is one that is going to be on someone’s build site, and most people agree that it’s a decent build. I.e., it’s something that someone has put enough thought into to put together skills, passive and equipment and post the build.
- A casual player isn’t going to accidentally create a decent build.
- In LE, a decent build should be able to clear 300 without too much heartache or tedium.
- Every class-theme should have a least one decent build. I mean, EHG, you went all the way to building a theme and then … what? Did you get bored with it? Dammit you created the fantasy, now follow through with it.
- A casual player will just throw a bunch of skills on the toolbar that fit the theme. At some point they will start to struggle and then, if they keep playing, they stop being a casual player. Either they start to tinker enough with their concept and it gets decent, OR they go lookup a build.
Notes: EHG almost gets there with Shield FG, but not quite, because the build isn’t decent. It’s on EHG to figure this out. They decided to create classes, and those classes have dedicated skills. Some of those skills fit within a theme of the class. That is what a ‘class-theme’ is. For D4 an example is werewolf. For LE an example is Forge Guard Shield Dude ™, which is distinct from Forge Guard Forge Dude (aka Hephaestus).
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A LOT if you’re farming a boss for their uniques. And you don’t need exalts to use it, you can use it on any random piece of gear.