An Update to Mac Support

Announcements
21

It’s not a “disservice to the steam community” it’s the harsh realities of not having millions of to develop games when OS developers change the rules. I don’t know if you’ve ever worked in a small company where cash can be an issue & you need to prioritise what you spend your money on to get the most benefit with limited resources.

Just don’t act like EHG did it deliberately just to **** Mac users. It would have been a difficult decision for them. If “almost everyone uses an iphone/Max nowadays” then it probably wouldn’t have been a difficult decision for them since the software they use would have been adjusted to deal with the new architecture.

Fanboys are all the same, regardless of whether they’re Apple, Samsung, Windows, Xbox or Playstation.

I’m glad you’ve found a system that does what you need it to do without costing an arm & a leg.

I am the anti-@CaiusMartius, I just don’t like Macs. I did a spreadsheet for my dad on his Mac (still with Excel) & it just felt wrong, the shortcuts, formulae, etc didn’t work quite as I was used to. But I’m not going to be a **** & say that you’re wrong for liking Mac for whatever reasons you prefer it. I’d just prefer it if you could keep clear of the statements that are clearly bollocks ("almost everyone uses an iphone or Mac), a few seconds googling will give you a broad idea of how much market share they have.

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22

This comment really just cements the fact that you don’t actually understand the transition to ARM and what it means.

Edit: People in this thread are getting really mad at EHG and Microsoft (?). Apple is the one changing to their OWN silicon which does not support the x86 architecture, the same architecture that has been the core of games for 20+ years, off the top of my head. ARM Mac’s are an extremely exciting time for the PC world, things WILL change over time but for now, indie game studios like EHG simply do not have the time, expertise or money to invest in a whole new architecture for a game they’ve been heading to 1.0 on for years.

Apple have been changing the rules for years, it takes a while for the rest of the world to accept their changes and get on with it. This is the price you pay for being a Mac user, and that’s a fact. (I have used Mac’s at work as a DevOps engineer for years, I would take a Mac any day for work. So don’t try the fanboy argument on me :slight_smile: )

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23

It is one thing that they do not want to support ARM Macs, that is something I can understand to some degree.

It’s a completely different topic that they are now suddenly dropping support for Intel-Macs. Why? For the foreseeable future Intel-Macs will remain the majority of installed macOS systems.

Btw: Unity-support for ARM Macs is already available:

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24

I’m not a fanboy, I do have an Xbox and have owned PCs in the past. I just don’t understand why one company has to dominate everything! And why is there still even a Mac vs PC or Apple vs Microsoft debate in 2020? I don’t even think they see each other as competitors anymore, more like a friendly rivalry than anything. The days of them trying to outdo each other are long gone.

This shit can be worse than politics sometimes and politics has been pretty nasty this year. Just give people choice and that’s how you build a healthy community. Not asking for much.

25

This is nothing new for anyone familiar with the technical direction Apple is going with MacOS.

Another famous example is that Reddit Enhancement Suite had to drop support for Safari because Apple forced them to pay a fee to host a free browser extension, AND they refuse to use standard APIs and technologies.

Apple as an ecosystem is trying to be exclusive. They don’t want to allow developers to write software on their systems unless it’s specifically for Mac with an “Apple feel” to it. If you use Mac you may also be familiar that if you want any sort of utility functions (mouse speed programs, snap window…) that chances are you have to shell out cash for them (whereas they’d be free on Windows or Linux). It’s just the direction of paying money for very specifically designed software that Apple is going for.

Unless you’re a high-end designer that needs very specific hardware and software that Apple provides, as a casual user that uses browser, games… it is hard to understand why that person would use Apple. Windows provides a near seamless experience, but if you want more control it is possible to tweak linux to feel and act very similar to Mac (and in 2020 has excellent software support for similar programs, and even gaming on linux thanks to Proton is near seamless).

Thank you for the transparency, I just wanted to shed some more light on the issue for those that use Apple but are unaware that this direction is nothing new. Many great programs and games are forced by Apple to drop support. The best way to fix this is not to support Apple, but as long as people do, the direction they are moving is clear.

26

Well, I’ve never seen riots happen because of the PC v. Mac argument but on your other points about it’s not really an issue anymore I do agree with that. I, personally, long put this to rest decades ago.

I’m not sure I’m following this right but if so, this is incorrect. It has some do with with an "apple’ feel, of course, but they main component of a ‘closed’ system is that they are MUCH more reliable because of standard protocols. This certainly means developers can’t go all willy-nilly and do whatever they want and circumvent everything but then that’s where you get MULTIPLE driver issues that plagued (and still do to some extent) Windows machines.

Again, it’s not an either or so in the scope of this thread being about EHG making their decision, they PC v Mac thing should just die an ignoble death.

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27

Nah, there’s no reason to drop nix support, especially thanks to the engine itself being gung-ho on supporting it and anything related to open source as a growth market. Nix, nor Unity, are about pulling support for architectures because money like Crapple does…

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28

I agree, it feels like they are just looking for an excuse to drop macOS support

this game run-on unity engine
and Unity is going to have native ARM support for macOS

not to mention In the meantime Apple will ship a version of Rosetta, called Rosetta 2,

that will step in and translate code written for X86 to the new ARM instructions, on the fly. That will provide a stopgap until new developer apps are written for the ARM platform. “Universal2” apps will run on either ARM or Intel.

To prepare a project for Apple silicon, developers should upgrade their project to Unity 2020.2 and ensure their game runs well on existing Intel-based Mac hardware.

The Unity 2020.2 release features several optimizations that are now available for [testing in beta

Unity will support both Mono and IL2CPP scripting back ends but will not support OpenGL graphics API,

so your game MUST run using Metal. Developers should also make sure to recompile any native plug-ins they use

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29

This is sad news, especially as it seems other developers are already working on getting their stuff working on ARM chips.

In any case can you at least let Apple users that want one how to get a refund?

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30

I don’t want to participate in the main topic discussion. I just want to speak out that I really wouldn’t understand to request a refund for a game that I have played like 200h or something…!

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31

Would you feel the same if windows support was dropped?

Edit: just for clarity I have a windows box in a corner I can use, so I can still play.

Maybe the devs can speak to Nvidia and get the game onto GeForce now

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32

It would make no sense for any developer to drop support for the most used OS for gaming.

If MS made a choice that was outside the ability of the developers, I would not be mad at the developers, I would be upset at MS.

This is not a developers vs. players thing here, this is a corporate choice and Apple flipping the pervebial finger to thousands of developers because they want things their way. Sure, I want to see us all move to ARM because the possibilities in power saving and possible performance is a real thing. However, Apple just made the rules in this and it has nothing to do with a developer of any software, a choice.

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33

With your decision to remove support and updates for Last Epoch for Mac, my chosen platform, I would like a refund.

I have 48 minutes of playing time on the game.

I was enthusiastic but wanted to wait for the Rogue class to be released. That will never happen now on the Mac platform.

You seem to not want to waste resources on the Mac platform during this 2-3 year transition. Fine, but then you seem to offer bootcamp as an option. It is no better an option than supporting the current Intel based Macs and the possibility of using Rosseta 2 for ARM based Macs. Because once the Intel based Macs loose support so too will bootcamp.

There will be no bootcamp on ARM Macs.

I feel for you guys I do, Apple threw you a curveball, and you being a small indie team with limited resources, but you just dropped an entire platform. And all you did was offer a few words as the only consolation to Mac users who bought your game, either through kickstarter, or through steam, like me.

This is not how you do this.

Offer refunds and move on.

Thanks

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34

So I get people being disappointed in the decision but I totally get the decision to do so. What Apple has done is said the underlying langauge your PC speaks to itself is going to change and change also to a language the developers are not using at all and never planned for or promised. Porting a game between systems that are using the same underpinnings ( x86-x64 ) is one thing. Porting it to a different chipset that uses instruction set is not simply get a new complier and call it a day ( I work in devops ). Basically it like saying I will write you this book in English because its the language we all speak. In english I can account for regional differences like say UK spellings vs US like colour vs color. But mid way through writing the book it is somehow mandated that it must now be written in Cyrillic buuut the author doesnt speak that language and never promised to write it in Cyrillic. My 2 cents anyways.

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35

What makes this hard for me to accept is that the first ARM Macs haven’t even been announced. Even the rumor mill says the gaming type of Macs won’t be seen until the end of 2021. So… presuming this game is a 2021 or even 2022 release, why not support the 100 million existing Mac users?

I love the game, but it seems more like the ARM thing is just being used as a convenient excuse to ditch the Mac version. Let’s not forget the original release date was end of this year, so hypothetically a full Mac version would have also been included in those development plans. I know they are a small indie developer, but if that’s the case they should just own up to biting off more than they can chew.

36

Business choices on where money is spent (software counts here) is dictated by future potential profits. This game is not reaching full release this year and as hard as the team works to try and make this game the best they can, let’s guess it will release in June next year. Okay, play the release and love it and new players are brought into the fold.

I am approaching 50 and have been a tech person my whole life. I watch Windows and Mac trends. Mac users are the most likely to jump to a new machine when a new machine drops, PC users do this as well but not at the rate (per market share) that Mac users do.

So now let’s say in September of next year, Apple has an ARM product all ready for a gamer. From June to September there will be no sales to the Mac people who will upgrade even if they have something x86 right now. The reason you ask? Leaks and people will not buy software for a dead platform (which x86 is right now on the Mac side).

Do you see the issue? Development is expensive and developing a game for a dying platform makes little sense when the developers can develop for x86 and hit the largest market doing that not to mention, port to consoles which is also x86. The potential profit for Macs started dwindling the day Apple announced there would be ARM Macs. Sure, we could say that many people will keep x86 Macs and that would be true, we are however looking at an OS with small market share being divided again by the split to ARM.

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37

As someone who wants to support this game and who is on a Mac, I think for a few reasons it may be time to provide access to this game via a streaming service such a GeforceNow.

This may be requested often, so much so that it could be seen as an annoyance, but it makes sense to make this game more accessible, now more than ever given this announcement. Even though this game is still in early access, I don’t see why you’d restrict access on a streaming platform unless you are in talks with another big player in the space.

I mean even looking at the philosophy in the attached support article, it says:

At Eleventh Hour Games, our philosophy has always been that you buy a game - not just the client for a specific Operating System. If you buy Last Epoch on a Mac, you have full access to the Windows and Linux versions. You may also install the game on as many computers as you would like (however, each account can only be used by a single person).

This to me seems like complete alignment with a product such as Geforce Now. It doesn’t seem like much integration work (if any) would need to be done from Last Epoch’s side. Just opt in!

38

Well, I am a Mac owner, and being completely honest here, Macs are really crappy for gaming. These machines are built so tightly glued together, they run hot under load, and on MacOS there are often issues with Steam or bugs with the window management, etc. I love my iMac, kinda, but as a machine for creative work. As a gamer, I would say, Mac people can still bootcamp. However, I want an alternative to Windows, so losing Linux support would be a bigger loss.

In any case, I want Last Epoch to become a great game with a quality release. And if that means the team has to narrow down platform support and development focus, so be it.
Better have a well optimized Windows only release than an unenjoyable mess on three platforms.

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39

The problem I have with this statement is that it simply doesn’t account for people who bought the game for a specific non-Windows platform. And to say that Mac users can just Bootcamp doesn’t take into account you needing a windows license and that it will not be available on ARM based Macs. So bootcamp has the same limited life span as any Intel based Mac has.

So my take and something I wish game developers using kickstarter and early access would stop doing is:

Stop offering Mac and Linux versions during early development or during a kickstarter.

The realist in me understands development of games is hard and uncertain and as you say a narrow focus is often times better in getting a shipped feature complete game.

The cynic in me believes that at times the motivation of some game developers is to offer Mac and Linux support simply to garner more buzz and money during a fund raising phase of a kickstarter or as an ill conceived stretch goal with no real understanding as to what it will take to achieve it. Banking on those 2 platforms who are starved for games to spend big.

Regardless of the motivations or intent (I believe the developers here had the best of intentions) I’ve seen countless times developers doing what we see here, when the going gets tough Mac and Linux support is the first thing to go. Either they are delayed, like Wasteland 3, or out right canceled, Elite Dangerous loss of Mac support and Kingdom Come: Deliverance, come to mind.

Yes its business but its a trend that keeps happening and no one is learning anything from it

So I hope this trend stops. If developers want to develop for Mac and Linux, first have a game that’s gotten out of development. Then assess whether you have the money, personal, and expertise to commit. If yes then you have 6 months to a year spent porting the game with less chance of some key piece of software no longer being supported or in the case of Apple the next thing they take away during a much longer early access phase.

Don’t over promise.

If a developer says they’d like to make the game for Mac and Linux, but right now they are focused on the Windows version. Thats a responsible developer. I’ll wishlist the game on Steam.

For me personally the lesson I’ve learned from all this now that my request for a refund from Steam has been denied is, don’t buy early access titles.

I bought the game in July (played 48 minutes so far), did some research before purchasing and found a similar article as is posted here talking about how Unity would supporting Apple Silicon, so I thought this was a safe-ish bet.

I was wrong.

I don’t know when the developers first had doubts that they would not be able to continue to support the Mac version but the announcement of Apple’s Transition to ARM was in June, it’s now late October, more of a heads up would have been really great.

So I now have a keepsake, a reminder in my Steam Library to not purchase early access games. Now if you’ll excuse me I have to write “I will not buy early access games” 50 more times on a chalk board to really reenforce the lesson. :smiley:

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40

i find it hilarious people think this doesnt happen in windows.

this very same thing happened between windows 7 and windows 10. more and more games are being developed specifically for windows 10.

this is not something that is just happening new to mac. mac has been losing support with various games for a long time. so devs now have to account for peoples lack of common sense?

it isnt an early access thing.

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