Alright, guys. Thanks for everything. I think I'm out

General
81

Well, I for example enjoy survival games with a building focus. Formerly this has been Minecraft mostly since it was the most modded game with the highest variety. Since ‘Vintage Story’ came out I traversed over to that since it’s more immersive with more detailed building.

So I’ll play that for 1000… 5000… 10000 hours.
It’s a ‘forever game’ for me.

Last Epoch currently is my ‘off league’ game for PoE, with potential to become the main game.
Why not the main game? Because the execution of the mechanics aren’t top-tier, they’re ‘mid’ at best, and ‘atrocious’ when it comes to MG for example.

So no, those 200 games all together probably provide me with 300-400 hours of gameplay fun while Last Epoch could potentially provide 10000 hours. Path of Exile already did 9000… so it would be a potential option.

So I don’t see the reason to ignore the ‘game as a forever service’ part, given that the bad aspects of the live-service model are removed, which are too large.

82

1,5-2 hours per game? Unless it’s 8-bit era, your estimation seems a little short.

83

Not really given I’ll put aside 180 of em completely after 10-20 minutes testing at best :stuck_out_tongue:

84

I’m always baffled by people who screech “L2P!!1” when they themselves experience a cliff-face of a challenge. People are so quick to forget that experience of having to climb it with what littel gear they could get through the early campaign, before returning with meta-builds capable of wiping the floor with a boss originally touted for his absurd kill-count after release.

Or this, and your latter comment about awful crafting rolls. The game has very obvious balance issues, but it’s fine because you’ve … what, gotten powerful enough gear that you can ignore most of the mechanics?

The whole corruption flex doesn’t help, either, since it only really proves the point that the infinite scaling begins to fall apart without the necessary gear rolls to back it up – and OP and others (like myself) really don’t have the time or energy to deal with the masochism and grind of fussing through all of this just for the chance to maybe get a decent upgrade on some gear.

1 Like
85

Go play Grim Dawn. There is even an expansion coming fairly soon. But seriously, It solves pretty much every issue you mentioned. Fantastic game.

86

Each time I quite for the season (or of a while) is after a death, usually a one-shot. It make you feel weak and wasting your time. The rest of the game if quite intriguing but those one-shots as you go up in corruption kill any desire to play.

And before somebody says “don’t play high corruption,” good luck with that. When you present a difficulty in a game, no matter how option, is feels (to many if not most) as a natural thing to progress to. And here is where infinite progression fackfires. Diablo 3 became better when the Rift 150 became normally achievable and thus the game became finally truly “beatable.”

87

But whats the corruption level you play around usually?

While I don’t agree with the entiretiy of your statement having a rough corruption range in which you play helps put your feedback into context.

Because if 1-shots are what keep you from playing or enjoying the game it does matter a lot if those are happening on 150, 600 or 2000 corruption.

I never understood the issues people have with infinite difficulty scaling. I personally find putting some arbitrary cap that the devs come up with worse than having an open end, while having an “intended” difficulty range.

88

It doesn’t matter in that case if it’s 150 or 1500, the argument was about the infinite progression system combined with direct rewards attached to that (rarity = more loot) providing the issue. If you play at a level where you die regularly but still progress even if slower the rarity might offset those time-losses and be more efficient even to play this way.

Which is a problem.
Psychologycally humans are very very bad at using the optimal route, generally the route with the most directly perceived reward is taken, which obviously is high corruption hence.

This can all be alleviated via a fixed progression system up to Uberroth and then traversing over in a pure challenge-based progression system, optimally with a unique type of reward available there which starts to scale but is not build-defining but still something someone wants to achieve. Options for that are resources which then can be used to create something else (hence no direct reward but a 2-step process, alleviates the urge to go beyond the skill level) while the former corruption is more fixated and provides clear cut difficulty layers.

This ‘intention’ needs to be directly visible to the player, otherwise it’s no intention.

It provides the same issue as T17 maps in Path of Exile then, meant to be between bosses and uber-bosses but they were so ridiculously designed that you needed builds far beyond that level to clear them.

Which obviously isn’t good.

The same happens in last Epoch. We’re grinding for gear from a boss which is meant to be the last stage of progression (Uberrroth) and worse off… is positioned in a way that’s totally nonsensical with a power scaling that’s even more nonsensical and mechanics that triple down on the nonsense.

I’ll again compare it to other ARPG’s hence:

In Torchlight Infinite the end-boss is not ‘the end’. Normal maps have a scaling mechanic provided which allows you to empower enemies and ridiculously improve the drop-rate of things from there. Each usage of those items is a distinct step-up, but each usage also provides a clear-cut difficulty level, there is nothing arbitrary in the way it’s handled. Use 1… it’s a bit harder, use 2… it becomes decently hard, 3 is pushing the limits of someone which can kill the endboss comfortably, 4 and beyond is past the endboss by far.
This provides a reason to progress and push beyond finishing the game, the rewards from the boss have value.

In Path of Exile the same happens. Normal maps, bosses, juiced maps, uber-bosses, extremely juiced maps.
The end-point is not uber-bosses, it’s the part beyond. And that content is challenging for nearly every build existing, even the most broken ones can die from one second to another with small mistakes. It makes the loot derived from the uber-versions of the bosses valuable though.

Now let’s compare it to Last Epoch:
You go ahead and enter the infinite scaling mechanic. You get provided the first end-boss at at 300c, a point where your build will not be able to reliably kill that boss, that’s more in the direction of 500c.
How should a player know that? They don’t.

Comparatively you get the Maven in PoE you are at a stage where you can kill the Maven, since the fight needed to get to the invitation is quite hard and chaotic, the step up to the bossfight hence is expected accordingly. Normal content to provide the access to the content which provides the invitation. Normal to hard to very hard. Smooth!
The uber-versions are acquired from T17 maps, but by that time you’ll have done the bosses already, which means you know it’s a step-up again. So T17 providing that in the current stage of the game means that this content to get it is harder then the bosses, which then leads to even harder content beyond, the uber-bosses.
And the precursor to opening the access to uber-bosses provides a extra slot to empower content in maps even further to a ridiculous level plainly, which also showcases the expected difficulty coming up.

In Last Epoch you get thrown at Aberroth as fodder when you unlock him, nothing even remotely prepares you for that fight, people at 800c at times struggle against Aberroth.
At 500c people unlock Uberroth… which is more fitting at 1000c+ though power-level wise.
At 800 corruption there is a reward cut-off though, basically going beyond doesn’t provide you jack comparatively.

This is really really bad design overall.

89

D3 greater rifts are something I will ALWAYS praise as being the best thing for ARPG’s ever made. The GAME ITSELF had issues, and I even quit D3 because of the gear grind (the introduction to ancient items being just a “farm your gear again” mechanic). However, Grifts were peak.

  1. Leaderboards were an option if you wanted a competitive goal, and they were separated by class.

  2. JAILER used to be a huge issue, as it was a targeted one-shot mechanic. They “got rid of it” after it was probably the top request for a while. After enough tweaks to the bad enemy designs, Grifts became a matter of skill. The rest of the damage was avoidable if you played well enough, and your defenses were more so for the random chip damage you might take for free. So you were still defense-checked, but there weren’t one-shots. You ended up passing or failing a Grift tier based on being able to clear efficiently, and fight bosses quickly. You still had to try not to die, because things still threatened your life if you were careless. But everything was just so… proper. If you failed, it would be from a time limit, rather than from being one-shot by something unavoidable or nearly so.

Grifts were peak ARPG content. I will firmly declare this forever. It’s so disheartening that nobody tries to replicate this. Every company, in every genre, seems to always have their eyes on the wrong ball…

1 Like
90

To each his own, I guess. To me, GRifts were boring as hell. There were basically two modes:
-You ran it in a minute wiping things clear. This was for speedruns so you could level your gems.
-You kept aggroing 200 mobs at once so you could meet the time requirement. You kept kiting them over and over again from start to finish while trying to kill them. This was for pushing GRifts up.

Not only that, but when you were running GR150s, you only ever ran them if they started with certain zone layouts, otherwise you immediately left and started a different one, because you knew you wouldn’t finish it.

Also, if you think D3 had a gear grind, I’m starting to see what your issue is. D3 had the easiest gear grind of all ARPGs ever.
In 2-4h you had your set/uniques, so your build was already online.
In 4-6h you had all the sets for that class, so you could switch around whichever build you wanted.
In 16-20h you had all ancient gear on and your primal weapon.

There was never any reason to play D3 for more than a few days each season because there was nothing else to try to accomplish, unless you wanted to push leaderboards.

D4 has a similar mechanic. But mostly nobody tries to replicate this because not many people enjoyed it (much like most people don’t enjoy it in D4 either). It was extremely boring and it was always the same. It’s even worse than monolith echoes before 1.2.

You ran a GR120 and it was the exact same as the previous 50 GR120s you ran before. Bosses were pushovers that never mattered. All that mattered was clear speed. There weren’t even that many layouts.

Mostly, GRs (and pretty much everything in D3, even way more than D4) is content that pleases the casual player. It doesn’t need to be innovative, it just needs to be kinda braindead and easy.
Which is not a bad thing. It’s just something most ARPG players aren’t looking for. Mostly they want to make build decisions, do varied things in endgame and have a challenge, not just have a time run.

1 Like
91

i just realized this after 10 years+++

whenever i see any arpg which has 1001 projectiles on screen. i cant help but feel that the devs gave up on balancing the game.

i’ve grown to appreciate older/slower games. 1-3 attacks per seconds feel deliberate. modern arpgs? if you dont do a gazillion attacks/sec you’re not doing good.

as for infinite scaling? i feel its lazy. whenever i see infinite scaling i feel its more of “devs gave up balancing the game”.

i m a huge sucker for making my own builds, but when the gap between a hyper optimized build vs a “new player experience” is so huge. players will be funneled into following builds more often than not.

as for walls. i like walls that challenge you to climb over them. but it has to be within reason. being able to beat a campaign boss and finishing the game is always a fun experience. but in modern arpgs, game devs tend to love having aspirational content that are super difficult that most players ARENT EXPECTED TO CLEAR. which is all fine IF it feels totally optional. but thats not the case. even in LE, arguably the best relic is gated behind aspirational content. all it does is funnel players to follow build guides.

i find it ironic. i used to look at survivor like games as silly popcorn games where you waste your time in 1 hour sessions. building your character to godlike levels of power within mere minutes.

then one day i realized, thats a distillation of modern arpgs. there is no real skill involved anymore. just follow a build. farm/craft the gear you want then just face tank/delete all the content before they become an issue.

i see little difference between d-likes and survivor-likes nowadays.

i severely do miss the feeling of making my own build and making it work but the fact is, theres no point in doing so when the game is always not balanced and certain skills outperform others in huge magnitudes. its always best to just play meta when the devs keep pushing harder content.

modern d-likes are not for me.

i too am done.

2 Likes
92

The ‘even in LE’ part kinda nudges me a bit.

It’s mostly LE, primarily even.

Sure, Torchlight Infinite has a end-boss which is a bit strong, but by no means ‘mind boggling’ difficult in any way. It’s a decently hard boss which is below the level of a Maven in PoE.

Then we got PoE, which has the bosses, most of them are nowadays relatively easy, it’s not hard to kill shaper, it’s really not hard to kill elder, or the guardians, or even Maven, with relatively ok-ish gear, not amazing… not bad one.
Uber-bosses on the other hand (or uber uber elder… cause one uber wasn’t enough I guess) are a challenge to get to, but even then… if you get one of those items from them they are powerful, but you can use them for the other bosses at least.

In LE it’s just a disaster because we have a single boss, one which was ridiculously hard designed for a otherwise absolutely piss-easy game in comparison. Totally out of the left field so to say. And then they went along to implement a uber-version as well, cause… yeah… just cause. And that one is so hard that it shames every darn PoE uber-boss easily. Mostly because it’s one hot mess of a mechanical clusterfuck and balanced like crap.

As for survivor-likes: Yeah, they are a culmination of what much of the ARPG genre goes for, but in a much smaller-scale manner. And repetition to a large degree. Fun genre, doesn’t keep me since it has no long-term engagement happening though.

93

i am annoyed by myself for saying that because i really expected more from LE. before uber abby was introduced i felt that abby was already a good “aspirational” content as it was not too far for regular folk to climb. so even tho it had exclusives players could be expected to clear it.

as for other games POE’s ubers USED to be in the optional category but GGG did move items around and made them exclusive to ubers.

and POE’s case is kinda unique. if i m being real, base maven is still a difficult fight for MOST of the player base. in fact even when i resort to “free carries” because i m too lazy to deal with her, MANY carries actually FAIL. 6 portals all gone. some refund me the writ, some buy more writs. some try a few times at their expense and give up.

is it optional? i will point out that players are willing to BUY CARRIES. if it truly was optional no one would even care that much.

and for poe, i still remember where the FEARED used to be my wall. my aspirational content which was NOT optional. every atlas passive counts. i used to struggle a huge lot. doing my best dashing away from attacks, running to avoid damage. i couldnt clear the feared for years. then one day i decided to utilize the 6 portal defence. i barely have 3-4k HP. but i burst down the bosses fast. on my best run i only eat 2-3 portals. zero skill. all dps.

i honestly felt NOTHING. clearing it despite being my tallest wall for years.

i do like LE’s harbingers a huge lot tho. theres a lot of ways to actively dodge attacks.

uber abby tho… meh… big turnoff. i really wish EHG did their own thing more than draw inspiration from other games too much. if i wanted to play poe, i would be playing poe.

TLI… i learned to dislike it. the heros are interesting but learning to use their traits is compulsory or else you wont be doing as much dps. their aspirational content… to be honest, feels optional but only because i m not too invested in the game. i want to like it but the game is too far gone to me. the power creep is unnecessarily high.

i m of the mindset that there should always be a low ceiling. weak players should struggle to reach it but can reach it. good players with good gear should be able to reach it more easily.

but how most d-likes function nowadays, is the ceiling is sky high. if you’re not utilizing a hyper optimized build, you can hardly jump off the ground.

aspirational content is a huge nudge in the direction that i despise.

94

Agreed, and it still is.
It’s the right stage for the progression systems in place currently.

Uberroth is just a disaster in the current stage.

Yeah, but with the rising power level through the recombinator and now memory strands achieving this level of equipment has never been easier either.
It’s the same as Shaper being formerly the peak boss… then new things got introduced, power levels rose and nowadays shaper is weaker then some rares in a map. Not only HP wise but also damage wise.

I think a bit different.
Low needs.
Massive ceiling.

You should be able to clear content completely but have a massive ceiling beyond where you can repeat already experienced content. With new rewards, sure… but content wise it can be regurgitating stuff simply, which is fine. It’s for the min-maxers there.

This doesn’t de-value the people wanting to experience the game, to deal with the actual content. But it also doesn’t enforce going into a place which is just beyond reasonable to do for the vast majority of people.
You get the sense of success and also the option to move past your success still.

95

This is the main issue in PoE. Locking things behind hard content.
For example, you unlock a map slot (crucial for farming strategies) behind Maven’s 10 way fight, which is very hard for most players. So they end up buying a carry.
Another map slot is locked behind T17 maps (which is the real top aspirational content that only a very small fraction of players will complete). So players buy carries for that as well.

It’s one thing to lock items behind these things, because you can simply trade for them. It’s another to lock progress.

96

i have a mindset that clashes with how all major d-likes are right now.

to me having a decent build should be the minimum requirement to do tough content.

having a good build/good items/good skill should make it easier to clear tough content.

easier and trivializing are 2 different concepts. in most d-likes a lot of content usually comes down to getting enough toughness to face tank everything, or getting so much power, you melt everything before they can even become a threat.

i would also extend it to saying, zooming should be a reward to players but not the baseline.

nowadays you see players obliterating screens of enemies. this is the current baseline. these players are also the same players that will say the game is too easy since they’re blasting content easily.

to me, being able to blast thru content that way should require your build to be min maxed to the teeth. but thats not true in today’s gaming environment. you’re expected to zoom and zoom early. drops are made scarce because players are expected to zoom. if you dont zoom you gain power slower since your item/currency acquisition is slower.

this is an issue inherent to modern d-likes. i cannot blame you for wanting a higher ceiling because you have become accustomed to the power and the speed. many players are like you. it is hard to course correct. ggg tried with poe2. maces on release were scuffed but i enjoyed it a great deal. ggg did nerf a whole lot of things but the result in the later patches shows that the game goes back to a zoomy mess.

currently i’ve been playing NRFTW. i dont blast enemies to oblivion, tho i do know there are some builds that are overperforming. even then i believe NRFTW might end up becoming another “high ceiling” game.

game balance is not easy. when a high ceiling exist, players will always naturally be funneled into playing meta.

reminds me of a friend of mine who played poe. he likes melee. struggled. he swapped out his attack gem with a totem skill. he did so much more damage and had much more survivability. his gameplay changed drastically with just one change. he could clear more content, more harder content, and clear things faster.

he ended up asking the same question as me. why bother playing X when Y exists?

97

I also play Avorion. No blasting there, it’s a space-game, extremely slow-paced but with a massive ceiling of what you can do.
I also play Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead. Every step can be your last, even as a top-end character.
Or Vintage Story, which is a - better in my oppinion - Minecraft Clone, progression to the end takes roughly 100 hours and everything is generally sloooow.

I’m not mandated to the blasting meta. I’m fine with Grim Dawn gameplay, it’s fantastic gameplay!
I love ‘No Rest for the Wicked’ gameplay too. Fantastic gameplay!

And I think more meaningful pacing for ARPGs is also great rather then the uber-blasting we have going on often.
But… I can also see why the uber-blasting is enjoyable, it’s a power fantasy. I get where it comes from, and I can enjoy it for what it is meant to be. It’s a flavor thing simply, it’s a distinct design choice.

The issue is… LE is not designed as such but tries to handle it the same way, which causes all those issues.
I love playing PoE, Standard, I hate the exclusive content stuff, the neutrered content transport over to Standard often… but I like the core game.

There’s a difference between having a high ceiling or simply having a shit pacing of progression.
And LE simply has a shit pacing of progression.

And yes, game balance is not easy, absolutely not! But what LE showcases is simply sub-par currently, not even remotely ‘ok’.

98

i think i may have disagreements with you but i think we both want LE to be a more balanced game.

i seriously think that the entire d-like genre is a poisoned well… a majority of the playerbase like d-likes to be a certain way. deviating would simply be a disaster financially.

i’ve played a ton of nrftw and i enjoyed a whole lot of it. could be better but its the current best experience for me. but you can see the numbers. its waaaaaaaaaaaaay low. and poe1/2 enjoyers who love zoom are not going to like it unless they have diversified tastes.

99

Yeah, but NRFTW is EA, has relatively little content diversity still and biggest issue of all: The gear variance is really small. So after 100 hours of gameplay you simply have optimized items and are ‘done’.

So after that time you stop playing, because what do you wanna achieve? You don’t have anything to play for anymore.

The RNG aspect in NRFTW is not properly worked out yet, but with content depth I expect them to become better with that.

100

Any info on estinated time of arrival of ver 1.0?