Allow respecialised skills to keep old xp values, new ones start at 0

[Zaodon]

@BroncoCollider

And that makes all the difference. It prevents “Swap to X fully leveled skill(s) for this type of mono, swap to Y fully leveled skill(s) for that type of mono, swap to Z fully leveled skill(s) for a boss” from becoming the optimal way to play.

So what? Why is it “bad” to swap to X for mono1, Y for mono2 and Z for 3rd Quest echo? You keep saying “its bad” over and over and over and over and over… and not once have you said why you think that’s bad. Not once. You’re just claiming its bad. No evidence, no supporting argument. Just “Its bad, stop pretending its not bad!1!”

And as I already challenged people to do, provide me with a build which demonstrates the “bad”. So far, no one really has. The whole Nova vs Blast argument assumes mid-mono swapping is possible, and even then, I don’t even see an issue with that. But if the EHG devs only allow swapping in town, then I can’t see any issues at all.

[washa3]

Dude. Do you read what we post?

@Zaodon

So what? Why is it “bad” to swap to X for mono1, Y for mono2 and Z for 3rd Quest echo? You keep saying “its bad” over and over and over and over and over… and not once have you said why you think that’s bad. Not once.

At least 5 or 6 times we have said it.

@BroncoCollider

The full freedom to respec that the vocal minority keeps bleating for will result in swapping between the most specialized spec possible for any given task becoming the defacto way to play. Playing “optimally” is a goal that - for enough people that it cannot be ignored - trumps every other, including fun.

@Llama8

So you do the monos with Ele Nova then when you get to the boss swap it out for a single target Lightning Blast. There will always be a way to “abuse” this kind of thing for the kind of gameplay efficiency that washa3 talked about.

@Zaodon

Now, add on the idea of only swapping in town, not mid-echo. Now, even that scenario isn’t an issue anymore. I get that right now, you can respec mid-echo, but maybe not once this is implemented?

Its still an issue.

[Llama8]

@Zaodon

Swapping Ele Nova to Lightning Blast at the boss is… perfectly fine? I don’t see the abuse.

Which is the problem. The devs have designed the game around having 5 specialised skills, not 5 with a half-time sub for the quest echo boss.

@Zaodon

Now, add on the idea of only swapping in town, not mid-echo. Now, even that scenario isn’t an issue anymore. I get that right now, you can respec mid-echo, but maybe not once this is implemented?

It still is because the bosses that matter (Shade and quest echo bosses) are all separate instances that you have to choose to enter so having to “go to town” to swap isn’t an issue when you’re in town before selecting the boss instance.

[Zaodon]

Uh, no you haven’t? Literally the only things you all have said in opposition to the idea is the following:

1. You can swap from echo to echo. (Yes, this is the OP’s idea. That isn’t a counter argument.)
2. It can be abused (but never once provide any actual abuse.)
3. It will be some sort of “meta”. (Yes, this is the OP’s idea. That isn’t a counter argument.) Also, not every build would even benefit from having a 6th (or 7th, or 10th) skill fully specc’d in their back pocket for different circumstances, only certain builds will.
4. Absolutely none of you have addressed or even admitted that this is already possible by running 2-3 echoes in between the ones you want to run. Literally, not one of you have posted “OK, I admit, this is already possible in game today by running a few echoes, and I guess it isn’t breaking the game.”

Edit: I’ve actually done this in game a few times, getting the skill reset back to around 17 or 18 is usually enough to do the Boss I wanted to do, and then a few echoes back to my original skill. I can say with authority, this is tedium, not game balance.

[washa3]

@BroncoCollider

The full freedom to respec that the vocal minority keeps bleating for will result in swapping between the most specialized spec possible for any given task becoming the defacto way to play. Playing “optimally” is a goal that - for enough people that it cannot be ignored - trumps every other, including fun.

This ^^^^^ this right here. This is implied to be bad.

@Zaodon

It can be abused (but never once provide any actual abuse.)

This is a matter of opinion. The majority of us in this thread have outlined many times how it could be abused, and why its bad – in our opinion – which you seem to think isn’t a “reason” as why its bad – but you’re just ignoring that and saying that we haven’t said something we’ve said many times.

@Zaodon

It will be some sort of “meta”. (Yes, this is the OP’s idea. That isn’t a counter argument.) Also, not every build would even benefit from having a 6th (or 7th, or 10th) skill fully specc’d in their back pocket for different circumstances, only certain builds will.

Just because some builds wouldn’t benefit from it doesn’t mean that the builds that do wouldn’t be “forced” to play optimally, at the expense of fun etc.

@Zaodon

Absolutely none of you have addressed or even admitted that this is already possible by running 2-3 echoes in between the ones you want to run. Literally, not one of you have posted “OK, I admit, this is already possible in game today by running a few echoes, and I guess it isn’t breaking the game.”

I’m sorry… read the following

@BroncoCollider

And that makes all the difference. It prevents “Swap to X fully leveled skill(s) for this type of mono, swap to Y fully leveled skill(s) for that type of mono, swap to Z fully leveled skill(s) for a boss” from becoming the optimal way to play. Requiring partial re-leveling of the skill to reach full power is a small but effective cost that discourages and prevents that gameplay behavior, because it’s bad for the health of the game. “ItS jUsT tEdiUm” isn’t a rebuttal to that - it’s just caterwauling.

@Zaodon

authority,

You have none. EHG does. And they seem to agree with the majority in this thread.

@Zaodon

I’ve actually done this in game a few times, getting the skill reset back to around 17 or 18 is usually enough to do the Boss I wanted to do,

Right, and I guess that’s your choice. However, that’s tedium you’re forcing on yourself, which is entirely unnecessary honestly. But you do you.

Actually, its quite funny because you’re the kind of player that Bronco is pointing out with his original statement

@BroncoCollider

The full freedom to respec that the vocal minority keeps bleating for will result in swapping between the most specialized spec possible for any given task becoming the defacto way to play. Playing “optimally” is a goal that - for enough people that it cannot be ignored - trumps every other, including fun.

[Zaodon]

Sorry, that’s a complete fail. Again, you’re claiming that Free Swapping between skills you already spent time leveling (again, no one is asking for free skill EXP here) is bad simply because you can optimize your gameplay.

Then, in your next breath (er, handstroke) you say that choosing to do that now, today, with the current system is “my choice” and “me do me”.

So which is it? Is it so Meta that everyone is just horribly sub-optimal if they don’t do it? Or is it optional, and “You do you” and irrelevant to game balance?

This is the problem with your argument. Its’ wholly inconsistent. You’re trying to put some sort of objective “game balance” trope on top of what is otherwise just your opinion that you don’t “like” the Suggestion. I already said several times, I don’t play that game. If you have an opinion and state it as such, I will completely respect it. But when you try to pass it off as some sort of objective “Truth”, I’m going to have an issue with that and reply.

Also, for the record, claiming what EHG thinks as some sort of counterargument holds no water in a Forum section called “Feedback & Suggestions” where EHG is asking players to literally give feedback & suggestions for alternatives to the way EHG has designed the game. Like, literally saying “Your suggestion is bad because EHG already designed it a different way” is a pointless response. Just sayin’.

[Llama8]

@Zaodon

Also, for the record, claiming what EHG thinks as some sort of counterargument holds no water in a Forum section called “Feedback & Suggestions” where EHG is asking players to literally give feedback & suggestions for alternatives to the way EHG has designed the game. Like, literally saying “Your suggestion is bad because EHG already designed it a different way” is a pointless response. Just sayin’.

Except this kind of feedback has been given before & the devs have always pushed back on it.

“Just sayin’”…

[Zaodon]

That doesn’t make the suggestion bad. Also, what EHG devs believed 6 months ago (or whenever, I didn’t look up what they said about this and when they said it) isn’t relevant to what EHG devs might decide to do tomorrow. That’s the Appeal to Tradition logical fallacy (fyi).

[Llama8]

True, but it doesn’t make it wrong/irrelevant either. And them saying no to an idea in the past then it coming up again doesn’t mean they’re more likely to say yes in the future. Maybe they will, but that’ll be for future-EHG to decide based on whatever experiences they’ve had between now & then.

[Zaodon]

I will totally concede that point. A prior “no” does indicate their tendency. But, I’ve had enough “100% sure no” answers swap to “yes” once a well-thought out, convincing argument was presented. So, I tend to “never say never”.

Maybe those old suggestions didn’t add the limit of only swapping in town? Maybe they had the “keep all EXP and respend it” that some people thought earlier in the thread, which would be “free point reallocation”. Who knows what the Devs really thought prior, and what those ideas were, and how they were presented. Also, they are working on new things for the game, and some things might have changed internally (not that we’d know), and they may have a different opinion now. Who knows.

[Llama8]

@Zaodon

I will totally concede that point. A prior “no” does indicate their tendency. But, I’ve had enough “100% sure no” answers swap to “yes” once a well-thought out, convincing argument was presented. So, I tend to “never say never”.

Agreed, I just don’t think “playing an additional 2-3 monoliths = tedium” is that argument.

Maybe those old suggestions didn’t add the limit of only swapping in town?

They did. The devs have also said that ideas on the forum have often come up in their internal discussions & I wouldn’t be surprised if a change to such fundamental part of the 5-skills-limited-respec concept hadn’t been brought up. And don’t forget that new stuff they add may change their views on old stuff.

[Zaodon]

I’m in agreement with you here.

I’ll just leave it with this - its really hard for any new players who come along to know what’s been hashed (and re-hashed, and re-re-hashed, etc.) before they necessarily make a suggestion. And as we said, even so, things change, and you never know what might sway the Dev’s opinion on something.

[Maelstromicus]

Once again, to reiterate and expand on my earlier point (if you read it even), this issue will become more of a problem in multiplayer, not solo mode as it is now.

Also, in another older well populated mmo the “do it in town” idea was tried, and it failed. Again, I bring up the topic of raiding. What happened in those games was that people would go into a raid instance, keep one build for clearing trash/some bosses then simply town while their raid kept the instance open, respec, & come back. As I said earlier, this in effect makes the game “easy mode”.
The current system requires you to open more than one instance (monos) or an arena and go on 2-3 monos or a decent arena run to level up those respecs once again to 20. It takes hardly any time at all, but more importantly I guess for future multiplayer, it does key your character to other instances.

Sadly though, you obviously seem to understand the counter arguments only too well and indeed it may even be possible that those very reasons are indeed the motivation for the OP. I apologise if this is not the case, but it all seems a little too obvious to me after reading your replies to other posters in this thread.

All I would like to point out to other players arriving here from other games in the same genre is this: This is NOT those games, this is a different game which seeks to learn from mistakes in other games and improve upon them. Coming here and trying to get the devs to repeat all those old mistakes, and also bringing in a level of toxicity to the forums is (from my humble opinion anyway) highly unwelcome.

One thing I REALLY appreciate the most about coming here to LE from my most recent other aprg is the LACK of toxic people in these forums and on reddit. That other game seemed to have been content to let in that newer crowd of moaners & toxic people over the last 2 years, I do not mean people with constructive criticism, well reasoned arguments, or other feedback; no, I mean those who merely post “it’s too hard”, “it takes too long”, “I never want to die” without any substance or worse yet simply belittle and abuse others who try to answer them. Currently, 99% of reddit or forums in that other place are full of those type of people which makes that environment for genuine fans impossible to use.

It’s not like that here (yet), this is a nice place full of helpful people. For example, when I first arrived I had a very odd technical issue, and my thread went into dozens of pages long. All I had in that were helpful people, even Mike (dev) took an interest. While the issue was frustrating, the level of community support was amazing, and so with much determination I made a work around in order to play the game and stay in this amazing community.

I’m by no means saying do not express an opinion, or argue for a change you think might be good. What I am requesting is simple, if there is no intent of trolling, then please take the time to read the counter arguments. Simply repeating your requests ad nauseum and belittling the many people who reply with counter points is not constructive. Alternatively, if the sole reason is to argue, to try to cause tension or general discord then may I politely request that you go to the forums of the aprg I left to come here. There is a perfect place to find enough arguments, discontent, and toxicity to last you a lifetime.

P.S. Feel free to read, agree or disagree, or even reply, but don’t use this post as fuel to try to engage in any sort of flaming war. I won’t be replying to it, this was an opinion post, not an invitation.

[KissingAiur]

Hey guys, just a friendly reminder to please be civil when discussing amongst each other.

I am keeping a eye on this thread because it seems like the conversation is going around in a circle.

[Zaodon]

Put a restriction on respeccing: You must complete 5 echoes (or some # of Arenas, I’m not an arena person, so can’t judge how many) before you can Re-spec a “Despecialized” skill.

Ta da!

I mean, coming up with solutions to so-called “failed systems in other games” is quite literally trivial.

[Shtrak]

And it would become tedious to use the feature, because many would not want to play five/X “filler” echoes or Arena rounds.
The idea was interesting, but I don’t feel it’s going to land anywhere.

[Llama8]

@Zaodon

Put a restriction on respeccing: You must complete 5 echoes (or some # of Arenas, I’m not an arena person, so can’t judge how many) before you can Re-spec a “Despecialized” skill.

I’m confused, didn’t you say earlier in the thread would be tedious?

I mean, coming up with solutions to so-called “failed systems in other games” is quite literally trivial.

So easy one can do it from one’s armchair, even… Coming up with solutions that work in practice, less so.

[Zaodon]

You don’t get it, it seems.

If I want to swap a skill out because I want to try another one, and not worry about losing the EXP in the 1st one, then disallowing me to swap frequently isn’t tedious. It has no effect on me whatsoever.

If I want to constantly swap from Skill A to Skill B because I want to “clear trash” with A and kill the boss with B, then it prevents that.

So, for people using the feature as designed, i.e. “You can despecialize a skill and it won’t lose its EXP and point allocations, should you want that skill back”, there is absolutely no downside whatsoever to this design idea (5 echo lockout).

For people wanting to (using your term here) “abuse” the swapping idea (which you all said was “bad”), then this becomes as tedious as it is today, and not all that viable a strategy, unless you want to go through the echoes (which some people would do. You know, “me do me”…)

Maybe my post threw you off because I sided with your previous posts?

[Shtrak]

I will stop here.
I love when I can receive and share ideas, when we all can bring things together and maybe try to go forward.
I dislike when someone permanently says “you’re wrong you don’t understand”.

We all have our opinion, with arguments. All of us. I don’t agree with you, but of course I respect you therefore I won’t force you to change your mind. And as it’s an OPINION, I obviously can be wrong! So now please do the same with me and let me think what I feel without forcing me to adopt your point of view.

I will not respond any further.