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After playing Lich, Bladedancer and Marksman... Necromancer feels very underwhelming

You were talking about 3 specific items, not 2 item slots and a 4x4 idol slot.

Yes and this is relevant to the EHP topic in what way?
I really struggle to see any relevance between that statement and the statement: I still don’t know how to build a tanky Necromancer.

Opportunity cost. The opportunity cost of using Bastion and Void is two item slots. The cost of Throne is 4 idol slots, throne is a 2x2.

Bastion, Throne, Void Done. Yes yes you also need to cap your resists but if you want to build a tanky necro that is the basics.

Can you follow the logic of the below to answer your question?

Because using EHP is one of the more effective ways to judge how tanky a character is.

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Yes, my mistake. Of course it is a 2x2 idol.

Okay, took me a while but I get it now.
Maybe because it’s kind of late.
You know the thing is that some people might not understand the deeper meaning of your posts, especially newer players and people that are unfamiliar with your posts.
This can lead to big misunderstandings as you know…

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Understandable, however given how diverse people are I cannot conform myself to them as a whole. What I can do, is attempt to explain myself when presented with such confusion. Sometimes I can be read as “biting” but who cant given the lack of tone with text, the language barrier does not help either.

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Well, you are still hiding most of the true meaning of your posts, so the explanation can turn into even more confusion for the untrained eye. :wink:
The explanation is there, but it’s really abstract most of the times.
Sometimes it’s good to be like a hammer: blunt!

Don’t worry about that with me.
I usually don’t talk/write as tame as I do here, but I’m trying to be considerate for the sake of others. :slight_smile:
And even if you are talking to another native speaker in your own language you are not guaranteed to avoid confusion and misunderstandings.
That’s just the nature of communication.

Edit: It seems like we went pretty offtopic… but we had a good run for like the first 3 or 4 posts at least. :wink:

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IMO, if a mastery requires 2 of the rarest items in the game to “become tanky” is that not a problem? I don’t play in empowered monos at the corruption that requires that kind of tankyness (I get bored and start a new character by then) so I can’t really talk to the practical details, and I’m, in principle, OK with some masteries being tanker than other (if there’s a payoff) but I do definitely have issues with the argument, or response to a complaint, that you can “just” use 2 of the rarest items in the game and a rare idol to make any build tanky. It just feels like you’re dismissing the complaint because those items exist when all they do is wallpaper over the cracks. If they were common items then perhaps I could accept what you say, but they really, really aren’t.

If one of the new masteries were released and it did zero dps but there were a weapon that added a million flat damage, would suggesting using it be a good response to complaints about said new mastery?

You aren’t wrong when you say that those items can make a build tanky, but it kinda feels like that misses the point.

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Bastion
It takes me a bit to shake off the brain cobwebs, but I eventually get to the point.

Basically if you want to build a tanky character you need to layer your defenses, simply stacking X wont get you there. Having said that if you look at the layers you need vs the investment those three items get you where you need to go. The tanky core of your build is handled by those 3 items, partly because the only other “real” non-item options are in Rogue and Primalist, excluding “active defenses” like rebuke etc. Rogue having dodge/glancing blow, and BOTH having access to flat DR when at Low Life allowing for double DR dipping via endurance. The concern is valid, I do not think there is some magic item or skill/ability that is simply hidden waiting to solve the problem.

It is what it is, do I wish it was different? Yes it should, but we don’t live in Should.

But IMO, “should” is where we are at the moment given LE is still in early access. And just sweeping issues under the carpet because there’s an item or two that can theoretically drop doesn’t improve anything or fix the underlying issue.

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My understanding is the original poster wanted something tangible that could be used now. I thought so at least, especially given this was posted under mastery and not suggestions.

Honestly I do not think we are going to get any real solution, sounds pessimistic but my take is there are already builds that pushed corruption too high and caught a nerf for it, so it seems like if we increased the ease of getting defensive layers it would just lead to more nerfs or a difficulty spike? Yes it would allow for more people to get to a higher corruption but it would allow that 1% to reach a way too high of a level, in what I think is the developers view.

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I have to admit that i never built any necro towards minion health regen.

Increased hp and minion dodge rating are the stats I’m usually stacking to make my minions beefy and melee minions can leech a good amount if hp with ribbons of blood (abomination drop) while the 100% crit immunity comes in handy for all types of minions. Mages have health on crit in the tree so they become really tanky. And a Golem is always nice as a wave breaker.

I can pretty much handle all content with these kind of builds where I have several variations running (around 200 corruption, can propably go higher).

Only exception is T4 Julra. She’s oneshotting all my minions with her circling beams. There’s no way I can get her down with my Necros.

I’ve seen Abomination Necro beat her but my own build isn’t that far.

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Minion Health Regen is very, very good in the early and mid game.
As I said I always use it in every minion build.
Dropping it in the late game is valid if your minions have enough leech.
That’s why I called Minion Health Regen a “bubble wrap” than can be removed later. :wink:

Skelleton Necromancers (both “normal” Skellies and Mages) are good in echoes.
The thing is that they will always be worse than Necromancers that use other minions.
Skelletons and Mages will lose their role as (main) DPS minions and fill out another role.
Not that that’s neccessarily a bad thing, it’s just the truth.

I’m going to be completely honest here… I don’t think that the amount of time and the quality of items that a pure Skelleton Necromancer needs to beat T4 Julra is worth trying to do.
You would need such good equipment and even then it would take you forever.
So even without the frustration that this fight has when playing a Skelleton Necro it’s not worth doing in my opinion. But then again when my Necromancer was specced for pure Skeletons I didn’t have like full T22+ items in every slot so who knows. All I know is that even T3 Julra was already very unpleasant to do with this character.

Abomination Necromancer is one of the best builds in the game to beat big bosses.
It even feels okay when doing echoes.
While the Abomination itself needs a rework in my opinion, it’s still a very good skill.
I just feel like the combination of snapshotting + many nodes that feel mandatory + the underwhelming performance of the possible unique attacks it can have (or rather the downsides of speccing into them) makes it feel very unflexible.
It kind of has the same problem as Manifest Armor, just not as much but enough that I would say it needs to be reworked in some way (it’s more like change some numbers and make the unique skills a bit more flexible, not a complete rework that changes the whole skill).

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No snapshotting needed, I heard dunking on T4 Julra is so hot right now (Abomination Necro) : LastEpoch This is decaying Abomination tho so will have to resummon every echo or so. Soul Reave is bae (huge AoE), decay is feelsbad but I guess is only main downside.

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I think stationary wraith turrets is another build that also kills her well. Julra is just pain in general for melee/minions imo.

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Both versions (decaying and non decaying) don’t need snapshotting, but the power gain from doing it can be pretty big, especially when your Abomination does not decay.

Yes it does as long as they are converted to Putrid or Flame, stationary melee is clunky as hell.
It’s not as strong as Abomination against big bosses but clears monos a bit better in my opinion. But both are very viable for bossing and clearing. :slight_smile:

If you swap your gamestyle the Turret Wraiths feels like a proper totem build in a sense. You can also develop a level of safety by placing them down at the edge of your screen so their aggro range is well beyond your characters. It is relatively “hot” right now with most of the big youtubers putting out their spin on the build, and conversely why I linked a few in this thread.

Perhaps the largest boon for the fire wraith build in my view is how “fair” rarity the uniques are, well at least the ones that are build enablers, making it a bit easier to roll your LP.

I’m a bit confused as I might have misunderstood, sorry I thought you just meant supercharging with more minions as I just used wraiths+skele(passive)+bone curse in the vid here (also it is with only +1 abom and overall just ok gear).

What snapshotting do you mean for perma version? like high minion dmg gear and then summon Abom and switch it with defense gear?

The Abomination has more health based on the health of the minions it’s made of, the exception being other Abominations which give flat health.

This means that you can use T7 minion health items in all slots that allow for it, summon your Skellies, Wraiths, Zombies, etc. then switch to different equipment (for example all T7 minion damage equipment) and summon your Abomination.

After that you can switch to any equipment you want and the Abomination will keep its stats.

Edit: Looked at the ingame description and it is also confirmed by @Llama8 because in my original post I wasn’t completely sure if I remembered all mechanics correctly.

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Yup, that’s how it snapshots.

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I dislike necro - but not because minions are statistically bad, it is because their AI is bad.

They all focus the same target, never fan out to deal with multiple lesser enemies and take forever to clear things as a result.

Yeah the AI isn’t the best but at least they’re not on Manifest Armor level, even tho most of the clunkiness of that skill comes from it ice skating all around the place.

To make them “smart” you have to break their non-existent legs or give them multiple projectiles. :wink:

The Abomination AI is pretty good in my opinion, but maybe that’s because it’s a single minion that actually has some good shoes with grip.

It’s mostly melee Skeletons and Death Knights which suffer because of the very basic AI.
Maybe Golems too but I stopped using them a long time ago.

Also the melee Wraith AI seems to make them come to you first (most of the time) before attacking enemies if you take the node that allows you to summon them at the cursor position.
At least in the Temporal Sanctum I noticed that a lot.