What could possibly be said in reply to this? Innocent face
Well, first you start in the gutter, then you hire the drilling machine that they used for the Channel Tunnel, you point that sucker straight down & put a brick on the deadmanâs switchâŚ
Oh, I think I saw that movie! More innocent face
I would argue how is this any different than doing PoE bosses with max block, MoM and insane regen? You have players literally just standing in beams afking through endgame content.
The main issue here is, that many people point out, me including, is that the damage output is very inconsitent, the more damage you do, the less damage you will do over time.
The most efficient way to do damage currently is in small big bursts. (Which then already sets a meta baseline for best performing builds).
If the devs would remove the system entirely it would create a more fair playground for ALL types of builds, even if the overall TTK would increase, especially on low-performing builds(the intent of devs was to make boss mechanics matter and not being able tokill a boss in mere seconds, without punishing already bad performing builds.)
I wouldnât mind needing even more âtimeâ for boss fights. The time you need to take down certain bosses is fine, even when increased further.
The system just feels counter-productive to the whole progression aspect of an aRPG, grow your character. Making your character more powerfull via any means(gear,passive, skills) just dosnât feel as good as it could be.
6 Likes
VS
I can kill or phase the boss instantly if I have invested excessively in DPS and have made trade-offs in defenses for it.
In Last Epoch, I am met with a brick wall once I reach a certain stage of DPS.
My 11 flaming friends gun 4-6K each on the dummy by the way; not 50, as seen in the video posted above (:
3 Likes
I disagree. I think having players experience the boss fights regardless of build in the same sort of way is a great improvement to boss fights. It then becomes about how well you dodge mechanics, if you can react correctly, if you can use your skills well not about the build you have and how much you can out perform a DPS race. I think DPS races is where ARPG bosses and power creep really suffer. This also passively forces players into boxes and excludes other play styles and builds because they will never be able meet certain dps checks or be glass cannon enough to completely skip phases.
I just come from PoE where I have like completely forgotten most bosses have interesting mechanics because majority of the time I am playing a maximum dps build that just skips mechanics or phases. That is just how you are told to play because it is âoptimalâ. Once you play a different build that does half the damage you are instantly reminded how challenging and interesting bosses are and it feels actually rewarding to beat it in that context.
Again I donât mind if my damage is nerf. I feel like players are overally offended by this concept because of how attached they are to their output numbers. When I saw this change I thought to myself maybe LE devs donât care how much damage your build can do in boss fights but want you to experience a fight and do it correctly to be rewarded. I donât see how that is any worse than any other system out there right now and I can see the protenial benefits to this style. My question is, if LE had a system that deemed âboss progressionâ over time not to mean that you are going to kill it faster and faster but your âprocessionâ in learning mechanics and mastering them, would that be a terrible concept, I would argue no.
1 Like
Sorry i do not fully comprehend your point of view.
You like and want bosses to be and more importantly stay relevant even for higher geared chars? If yes, welcome to the club, so do i think either.
I like that you canât cheese bosses in 5 seconds, thatâs ok. But the way devs implemented it currently, while reaching the desired goal, âFEELSâ very punishing and artifical as a baseline mechanic.
Probably i wouldnât mind this as a boss mechanic for a certain boss, that would be ok. But not as a base mechanics for all MoF bosses.
I am ok with scaling bosses in a way that they stay relevant even for good geared chars, thatâs ok. But if adjusting the scaling curve of bosses(or implementing any other system when removing the current system) in a way that will lead to excellent performing builds ot cheese through the low timeline bosses(like lvl 55, 62, 68 and 75 for example), that would be the lesser evil i think.
Thatâs what the empowered Timelines are here for too. Empowered Timelines might neeeds further adjustment too, as they are not as challenging as you would expect comapred to the core lvl 100 timeline.
Sorry if i donât get your point and we both talk past each other.+
EDIT:
For me personally itâs not the ânumbersâ or how much dps i am doing. I donât mind if bosses have tons of HP or protections.
But the inconsitency of damage kills the fun for me. My main and most successfull builds has alot of sustain dps with a short burst cooldown. And the most effecient way for me would be to shift more damage to my burst cooldown, instead of the sustain damage, which forces a certain playstyle on me.
On top of that some bosses fights like the Lvl 55 timeline boss, where the âaddsâ (donât want to spoil here) are pretty squishy, but because of this mechanic they last waaaaaaay to long with like 10-20% hp left. I burst them down in a mere second then needing like 5 additional seconds for the last few %hp left. While the boss is chasing me this makes the fight âfeelâ artifically punishing. I canât properly estimate if i can just facetank the add down fast, or if i have to move/evade/move on.
This problem is generally very prominent on all kinds of boss fights were you have ârelativlyâ low hp adds, which seems to die within a few seconds from the first few seconds you deal damage to them, but then surviving for another like 10 seconds.
1 Like
There are some DPS races among very competitive public players but itâs not a defining feature of the environment in PoE. People prefer dying less over more DPS by far.
Is limiting players DPS levels not forcing a playstyle?
Is it not the case that none of the late game bosses are able to be skipped?
Are you sure that this is the only or even the main reason?
I can see plenty of systems which could be better.
I suggested one in another thread - how about we do the opposite and instead increase the DPS of the players after an X amount of time while buffing the bosses health to levels where they donât get instakilled.
1 Like
Iâd rather have the bosses have a clearer phases. One phase you can damage. One phase for dodging boss mechanics (invulnerable). Mix them up. Got yourself a full boss fight without dumb mechanics for reducing player damage.
My original point is to consider that maybe developers want slow boss fights where its not about your damage but your ability to complete them correctly. Maybe that is what they want for their game.
From everything else you said I feel like we are in agreement. I think your issue is with how it was implemented. How would you make boss fights engaging and challenging regardless of builds so power creep in the future wonât be such a problem? That is the main issue here, how to solve this problem in a way that it makes bosses feel fun and not allowing damage to scale so high that it makes fights meaningless.
1 Like
Ok cool, FYI i edited my previous post with some example why i hate the system so much.
I am not 100% sure what other system could be implemented. But for the tiem being i would much rather have a more traditional system which âjust scalesâ hp and/or protections of higher level content.
1 Like
There are some DPS races among very competitive public players but itâs not a defining feature of the environment in PoE. People prefer dying less over more DPS by far.
Iâm not saying it cannot be. I am saying that maybe LE approaches these same things in a completely different way away from other ARPGs.
Is limiting players DPS levels not forcing a playstyle?
No? By making damage borderline for every skill allows every playstyle to actually be competitive, rather than the opposite which passively forces players to play the 5 meta builds which is boring as hell.
Are you sure that this is the only or even the main reason?
Iâm not but from what I gather it is one of the main reasons from the posts and discussions that I read and it makes sense with the meta of ARPGS out there which would be the only perspective players can use for comparison.
I suggested one in another thread - how about we do the opposite and instead increase the DPS of the players after an X amount of time while buffing the bosses health to levels where they donât get instakilled.
I have seen some good suggestion too. I personally donât think just scaling up HP is the way to go, it still would have the same issues as before; but itâs heading into the right direction.
Normaly you need better gear and skill to beat higher level enemys. In LE you are punished for getting better gear if itâs not tank equip. If you find the sweet spot and no dmg reduction stacks happen you kill a boss faster then person with 10x more dmg. This makes totaly no sence at all from my point of view. I think in the long run this will hurt the game big time if it isnât already hurt.
I canât find the right words to tell anyone how unhappy I am. If Iâm max level with a godlike equipped char I shouldânt be stopped by a low level whatever monster and shouldâve an easy life untill I face content that is finaly a gearcheck for my char. All in the mind of âI know what I do!â. This is so unispired and forced on players⌠it seems licke a aprils fool gone wrong.
4 Likes
That is what PoE has to do now a days with how bad power creep is in their game. PoE have to make fights have phases where a player cannot target the boss and has to do mechanics. These fights where they do this are I would argue the most interesting because it forces the player to actually do the fight to a degree. Even this though for a overpower meta build, you really are still missing 50% of the fight because you can phase the boss so quickly. That is why I have issues with this style as well, doesnt really solve the problem. Everything just seems like a bandaid (even their system currently needs work) to fix power creep, build imbalances with how complex ARPGS are.
I have been playing a poison monolith runner build, kills bosses really fast.
All I get from the DR is annoyance and the fight lasting a few more seconds.
As far as I am concerned they can do whatever they want to make it hard to one shot bosses - players will still find a way. So the only real options to have bosses survive insane dps are multiple phases and mechanics forcing the player to either do something or wait in order to deal damage(such as the soul cages providing invincibility).
Never played PoE that much. Sure it is just another bandaid.
Iâm down to any other bandaid to fix the problem of players skipping mechanics because of DPS builds.
Damage reduction on bosses in a game where I choose to build a DPS char, a hybrid or a tank is just one big NO for me.
It corners build diversity, it feels bad and is just so out of touch of what I believed this game was going to be.
2 Likes
Not sure if you read correctly but Iâm saying that PoE is not a DPS race, not whether PoE or LE ought to be. I assume youâre talking about PoE as it has been centric to your post?
Making bosses have an invisible shield will not in any way increase the variety of the builds - completely the polar opposite is what happens and has happened.
If nobody has a reason to build a glass cannon then nobody will build a glass cannon - no?
If it does somehow, Iâd like to know how?
There isnât a single respectable online game which doesnât gyrate around meta builds.
The more the game has specific checks which the players have to pass, the more the players are forced into meta builds.
What about the fact that it homogenises all builds because thereâs no reason to build above X DPS? Itâs essentially like capping resistances in PoE but in Last Epoch itâs with damage.
On a philosophical level it is the right direction - make the content meaningful - but this is the direction which every game developer is trying to pursue.
The question is how this philosophical endeavor is eventually implemented which is where I disagree with you. Developers should not force players into sitting with their hands in their pockets for minutes due to their inability to balance the game properly - itâs just not fun for anyone!
4 Likes
Absolutely sign everything @kiss_me_quick has pointed out so far.
The current bosses equalise the different build types and playstyles and force players to do all the same.
What do we need build diversity for if every difference is wiped away when facing a boss?
6 Likes
Glass cannon: kill them before they kill you.
MoF bosses: Youâre a glass cannon? Not anymore! Get your defenses like a tank and slap my face with your bare hands!
Imho this makes all chars looking for same stats in skills and gear, in fact almosy mandatory, leaving no place for different game archetypes.
Average gear and any correctly builded char should melt bosses 20 levels below. Any 55 lvl char should experience a difficult 55 level boss with all bells and whistles. Same for any 90/100 lvl char facing lvl 100 bosses.
What else is the purpose of looting, crafting, planning builds for?
1 Like